Sysinstall is still inadequate after all of these years

Thu Jul 3 09:07:09 UTC 2008

Dear Antoine Brunel,

I completely 100% agree. Actually I don't see the need for a new
sysinstall. It does what it needs to do. I have seen the later
RH- and SUSE-Installer, but I don't want them. What's the use of
a graphical installer?

The only thing endusers might need is the choice of installing all
required packages for a Workstation (like X, OpenOffice, KDE with
all the whistles (or GNOME if you like), Firefox, etc.). There is
a metaport for this already available (or was some time ago), but
I have never used it. 

Usually installation of FreeBSD (for me) is a server installation,
so I don't need X or any of the other packages.

So from my point of view:

- if you think the default sysinstall software needs some improvements,
  go for it. Apart from fixing real bugs I don't see much need to
  change this.
- don't make a graphical sysinstall thing - at least not as default.
  it would hurt all sysadmins that install anything remotely.
  It reminds me of the oracle installer translation from text-based
  to gui-based (a nightmare if you're not in the same lan).
- if you have only one system to install, changing CDs is not a big
  deal. for current hardware, use a DVD. for mass installations,
  use fileserver installation (that's what I did, anyway).

I am more than happy with sysinstall, have used it for years (starting
with 2.2.8 actually) and don't want to see a colorful chingeling
whistleblowing hard-to-maintain suitable for all graphics card
gui installer. 

If you need something like this, use PC-BSD, MacOS X or even MS Windows
or Linux, I say. 

That about my useless/worthless (or maybe 2cents)  contribution

Best regards,
Holger Kipp

On Thu, Jul 03, 2008 at 01:03:04AM +0200, Antoine BRUNEL wrote:
> I complete what Curtis wrote...
> 
> How many times do you have to install a BSD system ??? even in case of 
> hell, you can still remove every ports/ package, juste leaving the CSH 
> and kernel layer, then install what you need again... try to remove the 
> "glibc" package from Linux (an Howto exists), and enjoy....
> 
> Compared to Windows / Linux (RedHat or Suse distributions), BSD still 
> offers a way to finely tune your system depending on your needs, instead 
> of putting gigabyte software in place, "just in case of", with tons of 
> windows managers, productivity tools, etc...
> 
> BSD are still "harder" systems compared to other, but with more control 
> on what happens....
> 
> In conclusion, I can agree you in that the "sysinstall" soft is a bit 
> out-dated, but it respond on a need of a BSD philosophy: just installing 
> a working operating system. All the later tasks have to be done by 
> "hands". But that's exactly what I wanted when I replaced Windows / 
> Debian  to FreeBSD: having a full control on my system.
> 
> So, just another useless contribution.....
> 
> 
> Curtis Penner a écrit :
> >Let us take this further.
> >
> >Let's compare BSD to the Linux install solutions.  Well, lets not, 
> >Linux is so far ahead of BSD.  Linux understands the user.
> >
> >BSD has a better overall core OS then the other UNIX flavors.  The 
> >size to capability is outstanding. Once you have the core OS on the 
> >system it is rock steady and only getting better.  The documentation 
> >is outstanding. It is what others should look to.
> >
> >So what is wrong?
> >
> >It doesn't have the native 3rd party applications. Why? Not enough 
> >users. Why? Because it is hard to get what you want unless you are 
> >tech savvy.
> >
> >When you do a system install it is like jumping back to the 80's.  The 
> >front-end is like something from the DOS days.  You have to be tech 
> >savvy to know what you want to do.  You have to search out all the 
> >variations of the applications (tedious and unnecessary) to get a full 
> >package -- Examples: Postgres, PHP, etc.  To add wireless (very common 
> >these day), you better set aside as much time or more as doing the 
> >initial install.
> >
> >Given that the system is rock solid, you think more people would 
> >develop on it, at least secondarily.  But no.  Java - go fish.  All 
> >the development environments and features that go with it (Eclipse, 
> >NetBean, Hibernation, Sturts, and so forth) are painful to get.  You 
> >feel like a rabbit jumping around, and then it most likely doesn't 
> >work.  That is such a turn off.
> >
> >As for the installs, to get an idea of how to package an install, look 
> >at the current install packages that are from the Linux side. You 
> >don't have to copy, but emulate.  (Oh, the best out-of-the-box is Apple.)
> >
> >I have installed Linux, MacOS, HPUX, Solaris, Window (NT, XP, Vista), 
> >and the BSDs, and I have found the BSDs to be so yesterday that there 
> >is little in common with the rest.
> >
> >Porting, so that applications that matter go native, we need more 
> >installs and more people on the systems.  That means more installs to 
> >laptops. The installs have to be seamless and complete.  That mean 
> >getting more Open Source people and companies to compile and 
> >distribute BSD.
> >
> >I am looking forward to a time when installing BSD is point and click 
> >with not much understanding of what is going on (unless I want to go 
> >advance and do special custom work).
> >
> >
> >-Curtis
> >
> >
> >Rob Lytle wrote:
> >>Hi All,
> >>
> >>My depressing analysis- YMMV. I've used FreeBSD since 1998.
> >>
> >>1..Installing the packages off of the menu on the 3 CDROMs is an 
> >>incredibly
> >>tedious miserable process.  I had to switch out the CD's around 40 
> >>times.
> >>If you don't believe me, just mark a whole bunch of random packages 
> >>after
> >>obtaining the 7.0 release CD's, ad then install.  Its frustrating and 
> >>almost
> >>like Windows, except its a bit faster as replacing CD's is faster than
> >>reboots.
> >>
> >>2.  When installing any given package, if a dependency is already 
> >>there ,
> >>the  package aborts and then goes though some loop where you have to 
> >>press
> >>OK half a dozen times.  Thats insane.
> >>
> >>I think the CD switching problem would be to install all the packages at
> >>once from CD1, then CD2, then CD3.  As for the second case, I don't know
> >>enough about the infrastructure to suggest any thing except to perhaps
> >>comment that code in its entirety or put in  switch to bypass already
> >>installed dependencies.
> >>
> >>I wish I knew more about  your infrastructure to fix this myself.  Is it
> >>written in Python?  Thats the only language I'm not so rusty at.  I've
> >>programmed in 5 languages, but that was long ago.  I'm old.  But 
> >>someone who
> >>knows the system could probably fix it fast.  I think this is such an
> >>inherent infrastructure problem that has existed so long that a bug 
> >>report
> >>would be futile.
> >>
> >>Food for thought.  Thanks,
> >>
> >>Rob
> >>
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >freebsd-current at freebsd.org mailing list
> >http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> >To unsubscribe, send any mail to 
> >"freebsd-current-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"
> >
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-current at freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscribe at freebsd.org"