From nobody Thu Nov 16 00:30:30 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4SW1CX5TLZz50w8f; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@freebsd.org) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.freebsd.org [96.47.72.132]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "freefall.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4SW1CX4wFPz3csZ; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1700094632; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=v9VEuB/9ATJ7sc2r8hGcwu5OUWS1VYVO6p1jK5+z4mg=; b=ZQAUexmgcouMFYOR3MRyT8bXPi/sjajcrd0lB14c8eglvHsBzfgLODEIAuoj4b3w7R1rdn blOQbLx1+bOJ+/CaUfeb+STjsk+A2EQERLC7M/YTovwDEQR04JTCYbD/75Vk0v0ji8GJaR yf66vF8nK9rozucA2mssGH4EuP7N1GyDJWBMV5IEzz4vgFm23kU6ZxyYLB+ew17BM35irH a04sd9imBN4twKm4dzjqUaxeMwfGFiAmANGq+0zGCWW6CMQN/K6ExcITBJnkGc0TdI1cJG Iuy1ChnDcZNjNsk3SxEQzfjO/AIuNiplNTQya3PBhBdPxGTYQ0IWhXY+XnQ2Tw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1700094632; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=v9VEuB/9ATJ7sc2r8hGcwu5OUWS1VYVO6p1jK5+z4mg=; b=FdJCi3zi4dVTyKVdbLxjkm5J6DUqJVtQkDxb5LMTa7GiTm14p5QJ3JBCN9Yg1NNxPQPF+1 qqRgW8mzw0cCsPsRZR0L8S+wk4fDrcLWC52EfyueVpcnpE8kmnuJ1vcQBiC5ZaGeb+dmBX LMZNlpXVXaCf65V/B56Y81QrkkCjj0DEzst/XbWFL53O072cXRsiCnmjIKcycSkJxeVq7E AlMR4YkIbstO5uvdXmZPOPkJ6j44YnVvGV0sVf9Wm392Swu2GUiO/B1wttfqFcjwl3NhT/ R0lghRTCjpuouDNARnL6maKoNPGDyNjh6qS4ON4NOX4EWjskicTlYdCAoKKIDw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1700094632; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=s7oHqIoZ4QdKw7kL8/5XM+WMbuDJCILQIY3slJv+WmFVRx4KRT/724U/21EHOS77s8+r2R IvAQ7Nnmsf1h3Ows8h/UrFpZrZnLFnntPL8mB7UktdgGcugLP7gInjoSOTaPX8pZAlsF8b UWrc5rFE+tWN5lCfGu20NFhKuvGud8/V9BJZ3dkatAI4WrFYTeIW11zvJDtJR/RrucuRgL T3D+mw7urJ8NeoF5ijeQREWHxQ3p6+dbA8BRscX/XUO4EbnzZLFw/fmlg1pL+BMZb/Gnr9 xt0oWosjtPx92XwqhY5zIZxMP+g1+g0e5P3VDdzQFcvbfdgJHAaoBM4r3KT8Xg== Received: from FreeBSD.org (freefall.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:6074::16:84]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by freefall.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A53916228; Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:30:32 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from gjb@freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2023 00:30:30 +0000 From: Glen Barber To: John Baldwin Cc: The Doctor , FreeBSD Release Engineering Team , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [HEADS-UP] Quick update to 14.0-RELEASE schedule Message-ID: <20231116003030.GO1307@FreeBSD.org> References: <20231114203654.GB52320@FreeBSD.org> <20231115022701.GM1307@FreeBSD.org> <20231115045231.GN1307@FreeBSD.org> List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-stable List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="iYlQhtYNd1Y0HGg2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --iYlQhtYNd1Y0HGg2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 08:39:39AM -0800, John Baldwin wrote: > On 11/14/23 8:52 PM, Glen Barber wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 08:10:23PM -0700, The Doctor wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 02:27:01AM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 05:15:48PM -0700, The Doctor wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 08:36:54PM +0000, Glen Barber wrote: > > > > > > We are still waiting for a few (non-critical) things to complet= e before > > > > > > the announcement of 14.0-RELEASE will be ready. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > It should only be another day or so before these things complet= e. > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Thank you for your understanding. > > > > > >=20 > > > > >=20 > > > > > I always just installed my copy. > > > > >=20 > > > >=20 > > > > Ok. I do not know what exactly is your point, but releases are nev= er > > > > official until there is a PGP-signed email sent. The email is inte= nded > > > > for the general public of consumers of official releases, not "yeah, > > > > but"s. > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Howver if you do a freebsd-update upgrade, you can upgrade. > > >=20 > > > Is that suppose to happen? > > >=20 > >=20 > > That does not say that the freebsd-update bits will not change *until* > > the official release announcement has been sent. > >=20 > > In my past 15 years involved in the Project, I think we have been very > > clear on that. > >=20 > > A RELEASE IS NOT FINAL UNTIL THE PGP-SIGNED ANNOUNCEMENT IS SENT. > >=20 > > I mean, c'mon, dude. > >=20 > > We really, seriously, for all intents and purposes, cannot be any more > > clear than that. > >=20 > > So, yes, *IF* an update necessitates a new freebsd-update build, what > > you are running is *NOT* official. > >=20 > > For at least 15 years, we have all said the same entire thing. >=20 > Yes, but, if at this point we had to rebuild, it would have to be 14.0.1 > or something (which we have done a few times in the past). It would be > too confusing otherwise once the bits are built and published (where > published means "uploaded to our CDN"). It is the 14.0 release bits, > the only question is if for some reason we had a dire emergency that > meant we had to pull it at the last minute and publish different bits > (under a different release name). >=20 > Realistically, once the bits are available, we can't prevent people from > using them, it's just at their own risk to do so until the project says > "yes, we believe these are good". Granted, they are under the same risk > if they are still running the last RC. The best way to minimize that > risk going forward is to add more automation of testing/CI to go along > with the process of building release bits so that the build artifacts > from the release build run through CI and are only published if the CI > is green as that would give us greater confidence of "we believe these > are good" before they are uploaded for publishing. >=20 You are correct on all points. If there were a need to re-roll 14.0, it would indeed necessitate a release/14.0.1 tag. Note, release/14.0.0 has not yet been tagged, and I find it extremely unlikely that it will be necessary to rebuild from a release/14.0.1 tag. I also agree we cannot prevent people from downloading the images, installers, whatever before the announcement. That is the lovely race condition with which we have to live at the moment. My email was intended to be informative. Period. There were no suggestions that 14.0-RELEASE was not yet final. And to be fair, I had to personally deal with the fallout of a release "too soon", notably 11.0-RELEASE, where I thought a critical issue had been addressed, but I was wrong. My only point, in being overly open to the public on the delay, is that we (the Release Engineering Team) are not yet ready to rubber-stamp this as complete, as there are some outstanding items that are pending that have not yet completed. The alternative would be to say nothing at all. Either way, it is a productivity, communication drain. It is a lose-lose situation no matter how one looks at it given the above context. We either get chastised for being "too open" into insights delaying an official announcement, or for being "not open enough" when there is silence from RE when a release does not meet its scheduled announcement date. Glen --iYlQhtYNd1Y0HGg2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEjRJAPC5sqwhs9k2jAxRYpUeP4pMFAmVVYqAACgkQAxRYpUeP 4pPB7g/+PRsNVNMwdBIu3ex8Tjp/J6uEfSlo3iUTOFIXQ98NxcdPVHPtYFr+dKWo TYGgHMuOIJWM6mtRIEDCVazYTkPr0si4lCnReXxq/splwrwyMoNa6GxVL7m8KVfH FozYvRqb+UFlkdUaZepVZSXq8ADtpUH2ocwRZaQjehiW3Cv9lHSH88ey3OVwg2li JX64AUvvJ/BBQxr0bYL8kTP1oJTmZzf4Fj3P64KAVnOXfkCR8o07uqqlrqQzMXIG SSKhuySq9PSAETS3UZ/QoH8srh4N7HrlyrPYjrG2EW8jogJ08GaDkrUozVFub+WR ikK3tNF8KXIZUi4mQ+CfwUfyls1GDrJsiZ79Hqs3vtEtAXd+lwntzLz3vdMr2Odx UDgAOK9qaDJDIhV70mcgmfkmWlindF0qm0HxRnhDPJzt8iMuTULHKNCK06vJ3/z0 ewZ2HnD9sbXV/9F6ETz5l2lSuLh4T7jSLaQOW5SDaxsDyoU/Lz/g0VvqEOjnQcah CsoH9LkYDS3Cda2x2RZ2FwTxVgh/v4t16B9K8a1p0Xw22aCQ+Dt4YW1nFzJCZEAO AOXk0co8fetv+k5oeydOINwsbEOV24Fx3Fea7yYXSpCk05/MBKZKVPbMGJI8zQQm qZb7t9fHUI1mpc06rDHk9IbwCtp84YzMpRHCNwHeuiWoqRQwC5c= =Ltbk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --iYlQhtYNd1Y0HGg2--