From nobody Wed Nov 06 15:21:46 2024 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Xk88J1ptFz5cj1s for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 15:22:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com (mail-pf1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Xk88J040vz4JLW for ; Wed, 6 Nov 2024 15:22:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from kudzu@tenebras.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-71ec997ad06so5593753b3a.3 for ; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 07:22:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tenebras-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1730906542; x=1731511342; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=C6z2atoIe2kfdY8GUgZUr/vUoNyJxhyRmr4kkhI7Zvw=; b=MTLkoCcoSvV3ZO6Lv4NkGR+694pqD7SFDKjsU/STeWPESspFwNH7FmgnQ0Aa6aXhKy ywO9uKdFTc5ZfR4njuBc/r/aczgXhDuRCSvWR8vxwoVmelw2CCgfRHCJKghqfaHidGQq pzxKvFZ0kXbBHLG7hCECWUBdL79/FFKxbIwo27Py4bdUC8/lcQnKXM9Ea8tfZ50zDJEw uVGbPgQC1uLbmUg7A0iVMkRoKLIis2fbalEiSJI67nRH595rv+yqFZ8F6cPzxLLwlelY 0S7fjsWykve6wQ1YyG8ToGkXgBya65L1E7+/dl6taMgAucHPr/a/XNdiYVYq7vV3yTqB 0oAQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1730906542; x=1731511342; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=C6z2atoIe2kfdY8GUgZUr/vUoNyJxhyRmr4kkhI7Zvw=; b=vgzf53iFxonHSaqEJcc92XC1YvLCDh16x55Jyr/qA3VKQWFCKseZrhq/Up7kPkM7xj LLhXCvMuxg58JnC7yM+C3G/0hMuOkcezSDskX0twIpwSmnpcobqcPG9nXKjf6gl4pstW 0FnuOhVQBER29Di1KaSffkoxjz4j0u+T2NWWofZlNc22UoKK9JZq2IfiwPcvXKTzDF1D OjFhMuyK4VcjCjlkAIkr6rDB/r9WcI5pXE+qtScSXCVJ9Lyy1G+1VK83Q82dit5KniUP n5Za2uKN89QdAEpqdKnbpdi9BWQpRlH8PsAOM8rs8JrAIY8h3jedf23t33GtgBGrUEOm PyhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyBJyC6hqeDvlpiMAuW/dGDZZo1FbEMlB6He5I9khZy/zE0g6l3 7B7QQ8tuBHxp4v8pfw+CqjSunoVMWiPK+K/0oOZqoIMWMqja7FXtb13iDNRlvsT/fbLV1pHlhP0 yzoShqTcWpIlk5tQ50bShK9tYoBb7aWbVhK2oW227knnOZ6q2TVM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFLGhvGJ6ZzyykCryCPxwvXKOsb6VuKKXPcCJZ85O6puEa4eoxph7qGoAVzxHFJVD0oT4H7RUFH4fdosEQBNLY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a21:999f:b0:1d9:c5ad:c995 with SMTP id adf61e73a8af0-1d9eeb06e38mr40642093637.9.1730906542034; Wed, 06 Nov 2024 07:22:22 -0800 (PST) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5117.1728561469@segfault.tristatelogic.com> <2544410a-8a99-4b2e-a194-c8326a2e0ddd@heuristicsystems.com.au> <0bd5d79d35bb036fc73cd226edae1b969b22e3ee.camel@riseup.net> In-Reply-To: From: Michael Sierchio Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 10:21:46 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: How to zero a failing disk drive before disposal? To: "Kevin P. Neal" Cc: questions@freebsd.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009405ca0626401560" X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Xk88J040vz4JLW X-Spamd-Bar: ---- --0000000000009405ca0626401560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "If you are in the US and trying to be safe from the FBI then you are setting yourself up for "obstruction of justice" charges. Don't do that. A whole lo= t of don't do that, ever." Even though there is a fine tradition of playing lawyer on the net, don't. You're wrong. 18 U.S. Code Chapter 73 - OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE does not apply. Federal spoliation of evidence is a procedural violation of the rules of evidence, and can be civil or criminal. This only applies if the destroyer of documents, etc. is aware of current or pending action, subpoena, etc. for the artifacts as evidence in a civil or criminal issue. If you can reasonably assume this is not the case, destroy. Crush, then burn, as the DOD recommends. =E2=80=93 M On Tue, Nov 5, 2024 at 11:17=E2=80=AFPM Kevin P. Neal = wrote: > A bit late to the game, I know, but... > > On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 2024-10-11 at 13:42 +1100, Dewayne Geraghty wrote: > > > I worked for a provider of services for the statutory care of childre= n > > > (eg removed from parents). [...] We bench-drilled the hard-disks > > > before sending them (out of our chain of custody) to a furnace. > > > > +1 > > > Criminals and secret services will think twice about whether it is wort= h > > subjecting the Lunchbucket family's hard drive to time-consuming and > > costly forensic treatment. > > This actually hints at the correct way of thinking about this problem. > > Anytime you think about security, you need to think about what you are > trying to be secure against. That is, what's the threat? > > > > If you are trying to be safe from the garbage man then a hammer on the > circuit board is probably good enough. > > If you are trying to be safe from corporate espionage then putting the > drive into a smelt and watching it melt away is my guess for the best > method. > > If you are in the US and trying to be safe from the FBI then you are > setting > yourself up for "obstruction of justice" charges. Don't do that. A whole > lot > of don't do that, ever. > > More generally, state actors are impossible to stop unless you are a stat= e > actor or otherwise have some serious money. > > With enough money it's possible to recover data from platters that have > been broken into tiny pieces. Is it worth it for someone to spend that > money? Depends on the circumstance. > > > Ok, but what about the case where _legally_ you are required to render th= e > device "unreadable" (or similar)? Well, consult a lawyer or some other > in-house expert to find out what the definition of "unreadable" actually > is in your context. If you get brought up on charges, or even just sued > by the government, it won't do to try and defend yourself with "but the > people on the FreeBSD mailing list said...." > > -- > Kevin P. Neal http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/ > > "A pig's gotta fly." - Crimson Pig > > --0000000000009405ca0626401560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"If you are in the US and trying to be safe from the = FBI then you are setting
yourself up for "obstruction of justice&qu= ot; charges. Don't do that. A whole lot
of don't do that, ever.&= quot;

Even though there is a fine tradition of playing lawyer on the= net, don't.=C2=A0 You're wrong.

18 U.S. Code Chapter 73 - = OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE does not apply.

Federal spoliation of = evidence is a procedural violation of the rules of evidence, and can be civ= il or criminal.=C2=A0 This only applies if the destroyer of documents, etc.= is aware of current or pending action, subpoena, etc. for the artifacts as= evidence in a civil or criminal issue.

If you can= reasonably assume this is not the case, destroy.=C2=A0 Crush, then burn, a= s the DOD recommends.

=E2=80=93 M

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Tue, Nov= 5, 2024 at 11:17=E2=80=AFPM Kevin P. Neal <kpn@neutralgood.org> wrote:
A bit late to the game, I know, but...

On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 09:12:01AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2024-10-11 at 13:42 +1100, Dewayne Geraghty wrote:
> > I worked for a provider of services for the statutory care of chi= ldren
> > (eg removed from parents). [...] We bench-drilled the hard-disks<= br> > > before sending them (out of our chain of custody) to a furnace. >
> +1

> Criminals and secret services will think twice about whether it is wor= th
> subjecting the Lunchbucket family's hard drive to time-consuming a= nd
> costly forensic treatment.

This actually hints at the correct way of thinking about this problem.

Anytime you think about security, you need to think about what you are
trying to be secure against. That is, what's the threat?



If you are trying to be safe from the garbage man then a hammer on the
circuit board is probably good enough.

If you are trying to be safe from corporate espionage then putting the
drive into a smelt and watching it melt away is my guess for the best
method.

If you are in the US and trying to be safe from the FBI then you are settin= g
yourself up for "obstruction of justice" charges. Don't do th= at. A whole lot
of don't do that, ever.

More generally, state actors are impossible to stop unless you are a state<= br> actor or otherwise have some serious money.

With enough money it's possible to recover data from platters that have=
been broken into tiny pieces. Is it worth it for someone to spend that
money? Depends on the circumstance.


Ok, but what about the case where _legally_ you are required to render the<= br> device "unreadable" (or similar)? Well, consult a lawyer or some = other
in-house expert to find out what the definition of "unreadable" a= ctually
is in your context. If you get brought up on charges, or even just sued
by the government, it won't do to try and defend yourself with "bu= t the
people on the FreeBSD mailing list said...."

--
Kevin P. Neal=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.pobox.com/~kp= n/

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "= ;A pig's gotta fly." - Crimson Pig

--0000000000009405ca0626401560--