From nobody Mon Apr 17 14:10:16 2023 X-Original-To: questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Q0TVD2TXpz45wsN for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 14:10:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com) Received: from s1-b515.socketlabs.email-od.com (s1-b515.socketlabs.email-od.com [142.0.181.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Q0TVB3LK5z4XK0 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 14:10:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from 93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=tundraware.com header.s=slkey header.b=aGgBWU2X; dkim=pass header.d=email-od.com header.s=dkim header.b=OgitMRTy; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of 93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com designates 142.0.181.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=tundraware.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=tundraware.com;s=slkey; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681740642; x=1684332642; h=x-tundraware-mailscanner-from:x-greylist:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:from:references:to:content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=LxHbEnCOJdGuU8CNmXC0SSvbU5VmDY20Kh02qI5qh2Y=; b=aGgBWU2Xwyh7qgm0kKu1Z0IOylazMwO8EzMn6IctXZ34zWcy/zlyTtxeBAVz4E4XsiF4mcI7HIpPRwLj4JD9cOsnssX6Caqdmr9RIFuzusUhqCHRSA3sq+xmP29vI3JHq62oyyeaHymMhQmhHcotsawWYOxazDvhCjZr+aRVfT1VQVrZUYv5/lxKVrKwIsolpxTCyXxVVtmexvuTpBOjKUFTr4XrzA4AGMppLIku2CpHIm1ZPp6XjhxBJ6Zz5lZloLAoceA7yy5a8wFml/0OpoxhlxFX94No0AL5RnQbSkz+vwU7WE4ZoIgG52Hd1wQZCthdJOVInZeJZ68OSgjIyg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=email-od.com;i=@email-od.com;s=dkim; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; t=1681740642; x=1684332642; h=x-tundraware-mailscanner-from:x-greylist:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:in-reply-to:from:references:to:content-language:subject:mime-version:date:message-id:x-thread-info:subject:to:from:cc:reply-to; bh=LxHbEnCOJdGuU8CNmXC0SSvbU5VmDY20Kh02qI5qh2Y=; b=OgitMRTyYzJihMhf5EGdZ4WVDRM005GYEeHheIZTuRVma8jbq9G9sjJgyCbrfHPp12WUu9no/MuBIwuUjgslWLdT7CdbTppEjZ2fsr6rL967vmfrVPVUm1w7wpBKl2s56vgkJTWexABdcSU9xhtKuUvFPxOjZlKVt7jlcDAWeio= X-Thread-Info: OTNhYi4xMi5jM2E4MDAwNDZiMGJmMi5xdWVzdGlvbnM9ZnJlZWJzZC5vcmc= Received: from r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com (r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com [142.0.190.2]) by mxh4.email-od.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:10:40 -0400 Received: from oceanview.tundraware.com (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]) by r2.us-west-2.aws.in.socketlabs.com with ESMTP(version=Tls12 cipher=Aes256 bits=256); Mon, 17 Apr 2023 10:10:39 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.2] (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (authenticated bits=0) by oceanview.tundraware.com (8.17.1/8.17.1) with ESMTPSA id 33HEALii080908 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:10:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Message-ID: <8f65dddf-185f-8154-ad8e-47aefb5f8021@tundraware.com> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:10:16 -0500 List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: Docker Content-Language: en-US To: questions@freebsd.org References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9132FC42688@ellael.org> <20230417133223.3ef5e26c.freebsd@edvax.de> <54e45838-28df-d99d-f063-e2613589a98d@kicp.uchicago.edu> <20230417135251.08c45b7f8c82749b979efe58@sohara.org> From: Tim Daneliuk In-Reply-To: <20230417135251.08c45b7f8c82749b979efe58@sohara.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Mon, 17 Apr 2023 09:10:21 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 33HEALii080908 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-5.194, required 6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_00 -1.90, NICE_REPLY_A -2.28, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE -0.01) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.70 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[tundraware.com,reject]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[tundra@tundraware.com,93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[tundraware.com:s=slkey,email-od.com:s=dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:142.0.176.0/20]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[tundra@tundraware.com,93ab.82.c3a800046b0bf2.10443c1626561858e2b73952ac395ca6@email-od.com]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[142.0.181.21:from,142.0.190.2:received]; ASN(0.00)[asn:53658, ipnet:142.0.180.0/22, country:US]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[tundraware.com:+,email-od.com:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[questions@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[email-od.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q0TVB3LK5z4XK0 X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/17/23 07:52, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > With Docker and Kubernetes it is straightforward to do this sort of thing > with rather fewer and less skilled admins. I agree with the spirit of your point but not that last bit. We do want to get to the point where we can "treat servers like cattle" but docker and K8s don't really do that on their own. You have to do a ton of engineering to make that environment deployable, scaleable, self-annealing, observable, etc. Some years ago, I worked at a place where we brought a brand new mission critical system up on K8s. This was a high complexity application with lots of legacy integration corner cases. We implemented it in 8 months and then spent another 5 months hardening. The tuning and hardening of the K8s and cloud environment it runs on continue to this day. It's easy to experiment and fiddle around with docker, it's much harder to build industrial grade solutions. Docker doesn't absolve us of the engineering discipline required to build really complex systems. Then again, no technology or process and eliminate thoughtful engineering ...