Re: Docker

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 3:00 PM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I guess my opinion at this point is to drop this.  I don't see a valid
> point for diverting resources and various other things to accommodate
> 'docker' or many other things that are dependent on 'linuxisms'.  Where
> does it stop?  Do we start porting everything from Windows as well?  My
> point is there are many things in many OSes and variants thereof, that have
> hooks into proprietary parts of the kernel that are not 'modular'.  By
> modular, I mean that they can be compiled and used on another OS like most
> things in the ports/pkgs system.  Since this is 'kernel' level, I don't
> think FreeBSD should pursue such an endeavor with the limited resources at
> hand.  The FreeBSD kernel and userland are a thing of beauty and refinement
> imho.  All I have to do is look at the CVE database to see that in the last
> 10 years there only a couple of hundred bugs.  Just the linux KERNEL has
> 1000s as does windows.  I would worry that anything that had ties into the
> Linux kernel is probably an issue waiting to happen.
>
> I've been doing system administration and system architecture for over 35
> years...  When people ask what the dominant *nix OS is and are expecting
> Linux.... It starts us down the road of all the big boys use FreeBSD
> because they can't afford to have constant patching and vulnerabilities.
>
> So, it's either in a hypervisor and we go from there or drop it.  The
> amount of time spent on this discussion is becoming 'trollish'
>

I agree with this ofc, which is why I suggested an option rather than
actually trolling and calling the person a troll like others did.  And
bhyve is just and option there are other supported virtualization
solutions, I have in fact run docker in virtualbox long ago... spoiler
performance is horrible, and again as I stated its nice to pull an image or
to for testing it will never be the same.

>
> Paul
>
> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 08:23:35 AM GMT-5, Mario Marietto <
> marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> ---> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?
>
> more no than yes. You could try to put yourself in other people's shoes.
> You are only moving the problem. You are indirectly asking the users that
> come from another system to learn bhyve if they want to use docker. Why
> should they learn something different to just use what they need ? At this
> point they could jump directly to learn jails,instead of bhyve and / or
> docker. To learn something different requires time,energy,etc. This is not
> a good business card for the new users. And it implicitly admits that a
> useful and popular tool like docker doesn't work on an efficient operating
> system like FreeBSD. Yes there are great tools like docker for freebsd,
> but those users don't need it, they just want docker. Maybe they don't even
> need to learn bhyve. Just Docker. Your reasoning is typical of someone
> who has been using freebsd for some time, you don't think like those users
> who would like to adopt it and are evaluating the pros and cons. Take also
> in consideration that running bhyve to run Docker is a waste of resources
> on the machine,if I want to run only Docker,because in a normal situation,I
> shouldn't have the need to use bhyve. Users that have already boarded
> FreeBSD have probably already come to appreciate jails and many of them
> don't need to run bhyve to get docker. Remember the focus of my
> argumentation : it is something like this : I offer a native implementation
> of docker on FreeBSD and I use it as bait to attract more users. And
> between those users maybe there will be also good developers that will love
> FreeBSD even for different reasons than docker. The ultimate goal is to
> make freebsd a little more attractive to the industry, because as far as I
> read, it's slowly disappearing.
>

I understand what you are saying, but I think I was misunderstood or didn't
make myself super clear, so let me clarify, I also believe the effort on
something like this being actively supported in FreeBSD would be huge, and
also will never be a priority for the FreeBSD foundation even if it was to
drive adoption (this is my personal opinion nothing more, my reasoning is
that I've never seen FreeBSD invest on something purely to drive adoption,
or at last not as the main goal)

There are other  virt solutions (virtualbox ie.), I suggested byhve because
IMHO it's not that hard and when I said "It shouldn't be complicated" I
should have provided more detail, it is actually easy to start a Linux VM,
folks coming from linux are familiar with terminal unlike on Windows, the
documentation gives examples, there are a few threads on this too... and
well, you even have ChatGPT so if you really struggling you can ask the
cmds to start a linux VM with bhyve, but again there are other solutions,
like virtualbox, this I have tried in FreeBSD, and in fact on macOS too,
there are folks also doing this, because docker desktop is paid for
non-personal use or small business (some fear they might make this more
restrictive soon), and without docker desktop you will have the same
problems as FreeBSD on macOS... (see:
https://medium.com/pictet-technologies-blog/replace-docker-desktop-on-macos-with-vagrant-and-virtual-box-c93d6ac240e1
)

Also, when I'm saying I never tried it myself and was immediately trolled
let me also clarify, the fact that you never tried a specific use case
doesn't mean you can't say it should be hard, because I was speaking about
starting a bhyve VM, this is something I tried, its documented and if this
is hard for a person familiar with Linux then I dare say that person is not
actually familiar with Linux, if so running commands in the terminal based
on examples should be trivial... now running docker cmds inside a *bhyve*
VM is not something I tried sure and I did say there are likely going to be
limitations, I have however never trying to install docker un then run it
inside a bhyve VM, I have on VirtualBox though. Hopefully I was a bit more
clear now.

Unlike you Paul that actually provided a great response to my comments with
logical reasoning, what I often see here is that rather than helping or
explaining things some people are full of attitude don't even reply to the
main question, and they are in fact the actual trolls, sadly this is just
how the internet his, there a lot more people trying to make themselves
feel superior, than people helping. I mean, if you have nothing of value to
had but sarcasm and trolling, just don't reply.

Anyway the original question is about docker, and I do believe the only
option you have at this point Mario if you really want to invest time on it
is virtualization, and again this is exactly how its done in macOS and
Widows, the difference there is that the actual Docker developers support
it with Docker Desktop, and have actually done some work on performance,
and ofc some of the setup hurdles are handled by the software... like the
storage part etc. Perhaps if there are many folks wanting this the best way
is to ask for it on Docker forums (its been asked actually but by very few
people).

Btw Mario, as others said FreeBSD has the "jails" system, and I've actually
looked into a project that tries to implement some docker concepts using
jails : https://github.com/sadaszewski/focker ( Idk if others have
mentioned it as I have not read all the replies, sorry if that is the case)

I have used it before just for testing, back in v1 still, and totally
forgot about it, but it might be something to look into as well Mario, keep
in mind that it's a single dev effort, but it does support orchestration
tools, you can use "Dockerfile" like files and docker build, re-use images
etc so it might be easier for you than bhyve.. as even the commands are
similar.


And Mario, I understand the frustration I faced the same but in reverse,
because I actually started with unix-like systems (including the BSDs ofc)
and then started to use Linux for work related reasons, many times I simply
had to adapt to the "linux way", it's just how things are, but it's also
true that "voice" makes a difference... A lot of people wanted ZFS on
Linux... and It's now a reality.


I'm going to drop this thread because I have nothing else to offer.

P.S. Sorry for any typo I typed this fast and don't have time to review

Best to all.


On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 2:59 PM Miguel C <miguelmclara@gmail.com> wrote:

100% Agree with this, and the fact is there have been cases where there is
that tolerance and there are maintainers making efforts to bring "linux"
things to freeBSD even if via linux emulation.

Docker has been mentioned many times in mailing lists and forums and there
is always comments like "but why jails are much better" etc, sometimes not
only intolerant but rude reply that serve only to drive people away IMHO.

I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's
maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD?
Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? I'm sure it would serve the "just
want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issues
with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely takes
some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen mentions
of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is
supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the day
and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

I've never tried this my self but I don't think it should be that super
complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, the
argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker on my
macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will still
use Linux, K8s etc.

Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to easy
the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be good
for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.



On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 12:32 PM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com>
wrote:

The point of my argumentation is not if FreeBSD has or not good tools for
containerizing and securing applications. It has. Point is that the users
that don't know FreeBSD are tied to their own tools and rarely want to
change them. Almost everyone wants to change. But trying,experimenting and
changing something in the workflow is important,because every tool has bad
and good sides. There are many docker images already to be used on the net
and this will save a lot of time and effort and money for a lot of people.
This is a fact. And I think that it happened because Docker is...good.
FreeBSD has tools like docker,but the mass production of containerized
images never happened. So,would we ask ourselves the reason ? Maybe
something has not gone well. I use Linux and FreeBSD and I "love" both
these systems. Linux has a larger user base than FreeBSD. A larger user
base may mean more innovations in a small time,a faster bug correction and
so on.

I think that mostly advantages from the implementation of docker on FreeBSD
will come from the user base. Mostly for those users that come from linux
or other OS and that already use docker and kubernetes. I don't think those
users are a small number. Those users could jump to FreeBSD if Docker /
Kubernetes are implemented in FreeBSD. This could be the straw that broke
the camel's back. You argue that the jails are working already great and
that they should use them. I argue that the freebsd community could have a
more tolerant behavior to the users that could jump to the FreeBSD world
and they should not force them to learn only new technologies at first. To
have some important tools which work on multiple systems means having a
good business card. So,in the end I ask to myself and to you : FreeBSD
needs to grow in terms of community ? Does it need to be populated by a
bigger number of users that will come from another OS base community ?

On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 10:17 AM Alejandro Imass <aimass@yabarana.com>
wrote:



On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:28 PM Paul Pathiakis <pathiaki2@yahoo.com> wrote:

I believe the simplest thing would be to wrap jails or iocage in an
interface that looks like and behaves Docker-like.


and Bastille!





-- 
Mario.



-- 
Mario.

>