From nobody Mon Apr 17 04:10:41 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Q0D9z5RdMz45GtD for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:10:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Received: from sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.148]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Q0D9z3GBhz3JyG for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:10:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pathiaki2@yahoo.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681704645; bh=pBoCXAYWYEk8d37wFK6GR44zOExmniyoJ0SsuLMRmH4=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=GIUrzEbeyI0FjHGzJPm0zopECuxeeLP1d+U9S7WR4IWE2fX8KsX1Ue9/kCJ/P/rcKeod5bvKNCnhXMKvOu5U8gttvKl4+RRFfv7I7Ztx+zg1uIGOzenV1ihr9af3zaodDToWv3bCMHNVuc+FAoZTWBrohxDFs0lZMmN9hM3u42dMGjMFNc9qYLRj2lBREgqLCFzQ4ADEsgkjEqvqqJoVcSc+lZamitchkvdKtkmUCCnBno77wo3qFkaK+UwnfQym3wq1LbMqNm5ZAzWwKWZOOP02XnJwZ/atnBS/A7fC86bHu32dS+BfAafo/FG5UF2R5GXD9nZg92RIJ62pEopGrg== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1681704645; bh=X5zXlRa1peTWo8XytWAlXsM0W7iKVQcLFwGugZlkitB=; h=X-Sonic-MF:Date:From:To:Subject:From:Subject; b=JCfuybZOgcvmahqJIJ0Is9cXJx1MPddw3QR5mnwVAmTY9Kz0KebPsjCeeMd9slrBgJ//JTDR9wwPzN32QAfUlb6DIYVRQxDOtWNpatHB/1cuHO8UJTWFaQQOnNN9PVMBWYwc4zGYcfAT4qnROuSfaJfsl3ONnKnUEtZH3eVJPq/8OLqXBFRFl1hyqYbmiyiqOLfpuvvUN8V8hekLKzHCz1OwzxBARHEbDmmmUvzXALw7sKH6BgpV2RznQdplTaxcAIhhhtXV0fSEdUM00CLE9qjD927O7NY3JNOCIo5pzMz1s9dSmbknhZ3SMu8orWLDHNPRKLGGMYF/u/BxPi4aBQ== X-YMail-OSG: djM.bFgVM1k_VPYmWvafReDxi.4WpaE0wT2jrsDloiiSitv1WB7ztfkBSuvZbtp f7ZROlivyckXflfvW4CSUdpNn9tVNslh4HdFQtO0M0A4XTG3P9pnTHwBD7FAdU5W8xGSW.ifTZnN XmNFpY94dr7iM4n2px2S8n6dY9cWr9ds8lh86cEJjlYsyrqiUvgSMkPtmM54mfYkGdot_C89Cs4C PTXxGjNquuGvTuIqfSJr78x7_bJYpMdxbDF83GZ5zk59S.gtvUty.9g8qz1jLqG6Wz.zlW_9enak XxOrfWGzD50wmk.pa2Nabyk682SAhyCd6YxFN3Fk16d4J_sOTLVdDnJkWvmv5FGuNm37hVmlwarJ xmYgKJEoH6zzS3uw0KqgPP06odpKzF_uWVHFoAX.pGDJ7TA6BAqzZ6p5ej3_ID8yvFv76Njvi8Ry l7wRXLpsDTBSSSbaVVEye27m3acxMDxOGyGr2i5.YO87lG3phwcxGm7mC4_eX3JbaGgrGxjMzjPA bKwOfA2j5qM2ZJbbStfkIbtN0feOczLe_Gs6NsULd_xFfhjcOH7ImmpSJ3crSmcK3D80FUnXaYiU yDEC6oy4B5aaAv_rB.M5wPU.iZl3c2J8owEygZlnBk2h899GKWUHbFrR4STuluDbdi7VLh5zJ2c9 V76f8vqOELffnbA6gqk1.kdnVwoDwrETD.lsOmH1spN_rqRO2KzfoGsRGKTfoJePzOwhkRcZkyQ_ gKJvmpFKP9uA3mD3fU7EKohbXnKtAH6fDVMkWR8jdyJRCzr1Oo8ZCPwVmjeJ3z23vOq7qRJQL7Q_ sz_H8TwmArHf73HM1BfBtDRAH1KfQ33WP7lwLAIux10DZTBdB2EoERrqts9489KWlJBmmYWUZvSr ZSOniB9qNwItJaJJglwHBAiSdUADtUoXBGuavAo0ElZgGF6OOVLFhn4oZigaKbMbS2ASxzbYZ3m1 7J0J4QpcO0lQf9t.lDuSfHuHUH4TusM4uaRCF1X9mwieRB0GWlZUO9DtKI6MC1mVxWXRH64tc7CD _QDPaFRcX2iXusk.KkE2VnCtTWJnkZmAJzXaaj07m20tNF8fflO0S4y1w5yXL7_My50VzM2L9IZv LEqMH5Js1.VqSjt2HZ3aK4GLMJLBbc9CoC6lxdTaHvCr_ZsZZrh8zxSdI5HPDEmsC8C3QIyoqlYD kGH_ykgDrpox9d7EZFez5z3ogU0GUPk_Yqsd.fDU88yhWAdQylbVni5BaZh6cJ8NLYwhJ5tWanXv rn_9C5xZzNtZDfJ9MhKFoH3ExJhS2cW15B4ZpP2pjFKGk_HqN_Z7ozVMixRg.vVLO18stpiGshr_ g2mjofM2_A.glsjY4dXyGdDukhra9dpJg79frKUb2mKRF2Oe.qHF_OLaRRsTKSaT9MDA.jr2Racu dpfHNOCuyv1TfNKwqKt_krA9nnfeGPEXDTtOemIYVVKI0b3xEzMz4evS_TlltV9Dn6sK6TYQL9pY 8ltiCjXq9nIgu7EGnsxUl2ttJjsAFadRoB7jDGARiMKEAj_RdOsoMm8jNJ5fSEtK52sBl2KKbe27 dIydVH4kKV53_K7yRgBSLrUbQcrgk0UXgOWoLseIuXTFTnHe2Ahmn_S2aoF9bSisvs8lQrTuua4R M7YMBL3cQqdcGu2a8JsjWae3tSeXykSRK9BoJOIeuPElpHqvWoGVJdLnhB9lzyA8xmU30_tEdg77 1HD0k8h6kypH4RKwTJUl0D80279I0E8jLY.lup1yqpJ.4AofpQYoaacTy8ySq58ntPz5EAHTGzvM mSbX7EVYnSj8yWzBWibegcF34e_vxtDgizqo0KUyvBr.PDB9qQi9FrN4KjrVFH7DhhEzueA7nFRv pY31GFvck_gnotyB3WNIltIITqiftdb4e87SS7LmYy8g4lxsKkeCtYjsv5NJzOT6erG6vm8LqBsj MlDcvYDOP7IlReuqhFtbRb3wq44.o7Lt6.ZliTsr_dlM1sTb6JXCi4FCCh_OtmbEey8fqqz_PIcm 2aOrmUls964Ar.WVW7AeFTygEOqx.3Du8..I7cZ07iuEIUSYQnJSJOV5FlBwzeKvIby6j8t4KMpN XvNzFZupRL7uC.q4YNswtEJMRDpSZ_lV1oZb6trcIeHx7AekbWB.wm_8GN.7S6.8priOIo9BKyFf 10bXNnHVRuo7otHIIV_TZyN8X58OXPG.vfDxWBtm0QZZAsxmJPx6LqjBMj1IUP9VqIia70r_i3YB Si7IRNjm5C.jRyTBkYIVVLMmKkJAYeD34ZayaW5WvtlE5QhnZavN_zU7l X-Sonic-MF: X-Sonic-ID: cfd72afd-a4ee-4a5f-b1b2-dbbe05611728 Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:10:45 +0000 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2023 04:10:41 +0000 (UTC) From: Paul Pathiakis To: FreeBSD Mailing List , Tim Daneliuk Message-ID: <1047709965.4366598.1681704641048@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <92f6a9df-fd1e-9411-6093-fc8a145add17@tundraware.com> References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230412155252.5e38ea4728bd52dc798852fc@sohara.org> <1d0a7ed1-9330-49df-9b66-9ee4387de511@app.fastmail.com> <78F4160A-2D26-4A22-9139-A9 132FC42688@ellael.org> <8f3a86806377c2c92039eaf2765f5b85862de178.camel@riseup.net> <858859542.4652196.1681696294734@mail.yahoo.com> <92f6a9df-fd1e-9411-6093-fc8a145a dd17@tundraware.com> Subject: Re: Docker List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4366597_372436311.1681704641046" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.21365 YMailNorrin X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Q0D9z3GBhz3JyG X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N ------=_Part_4366597_372436311.1681704641046 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Believe it or not Tim, I do agree with you on a lot your points. However, in the hey-day of BSD based derivatives, I saw a lot of the issues= .=C2=A0 I laughed on the Hotmail transition.=C2=A0 A 10x transition to NT4 = machines... Well, I've been in hundreds and seen more than just one. But again, you're right it's a rounding error.=C2=A0 However, all the 'cool= things' come from BSD.... from PF, SSH, etc and it will continue to happen= . AWS does have FreeBSD as does Azure. And you're right, I know what the reality is.=C2=A0 I live the delusion tha= t some day.... we'll go back to code optimization and proper methodologies = instead of throwing hardware at it. Also, I don't believe anyone should have an 'inventor' moniker when they co= py the bulk of code from the back of a Minix book that happened to have the= source in it. Last, BSD 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno and 4.4. :D=C2=A0 Govt was all o= ver BSD for many years.=C2=A0 The problem was the world changed and shortcu= ts and ridiculous excuses took hold. Nice meeting you and have a good one, Paul On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:21:55 PM EDT, Tim Daneliuk wrote: =20 =20 On 4/16/23 20:51, Paul Pathiakis wrote: > I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is used 'less' in th= e industry....=C2=A0 You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD... > However, you don't seem to understand the philosophical differences in th= e development of the two projects. You're kidding yourself (as all true religious zealots do).=C2=A0 BSD is my= preferred OS. I've been using it since well before there was even a notion of BSD386.=C2=A0 But to claim it's in w= ide use in commercial settings is a particular form of hallucination.=C2=A0 I have been in many, many, man= y data centers as a consultant and as an employee.=C2=A0 There I find Windows, SunOS, AIX, and Linux in ab= undance.=C2=A0 BSD shows up only as an embedded system in things like NAS systems.=C2=A0 In all the DCs I've ever been in, = among the many thousands of servers I've surveyed, I think I've found maybe one instance o= f a freestanding BSD server. Yes, there are companies like Apple using a desktop derived from BSD but th= at's not what the users actually experience unless they choose to run at the CLI.=C2=A0 The users experience= some version of the Aqua UI and all the cruft that goes with it. Yes, companies Apache and (in the past) Hotmail us= e BSD, but c'mon, that's rounding error in the scheme of things.=C2=A0 Oracle, Google, and AWS clouds are all= built on linux and represent hundreds of thousands or even millions of payloads.=C2=A0 Even Azure has gr= udgingly made room for this. Go try to find a mainstream cloud vendor with a standard BSD image availabl= e.=C2=A0 The only one I ever found was Digital Ocean and they're relatively small. Linux and Windows dominate the server room and industry by a huge margin.= =C2=A0 This is observably true, not some wild opinion.=C2=A0 Do I wish this were no so. Yes.=C2=A0 Do I think t= he FreeBSD community has a superior release disciple and overall higher quality quality.=C2=A0 Certainly.=C2=A0= But I cooperate with Reality, I don't engage in wishful thinking to make professional choices.=C2=A0 You only hav= e to look at the number of jobs available for Linux experience vs. those that name BSD in any form to get a= clue where the center of gravity is. Every few years someone starts another one of this ridiculous "My OS, Is Be= tter Than Your OS" arguments which are fundamentally useless. =20 ------=_Part_4366597_372436311.1681704641046 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Believe it or not Tim, I do = agree with you on a lot your points.

However, in the hey-= day of BSD based derivatives, I saw a lot of the issues.  I laughed on= the Hotmail transition.  A 10x transition to NT4 machines...

Well, I've been in hundreds and seen more than just one.

But again, you're right it's a rounding error.  However, al= l the 'cool things' come from BSD.... from PF, SSH, etc and it will continu= e to happen.

AWS does have FreeBSD as does Azure.

And you're right, I know what the reality is.  I live the d= elusion that some day.... we'll go back to code optimization and proper met= hodologies instead of throwing hardware at it.

Also, I do= n't believe anyone should have an 'inventor' moniker when they copy the bul= k of code from the back of a Minix book that happened to have the source in= it.

Last, BSD 4.0, 4.1, 4.2, 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno and 4.4. = :D  Govt was all over BSD for many years.  The problem was the wo= rld changed and shortcuts and ridiculous excuses took hold.

Nice meeting you and have a good one,

Paul
=

=20
=20
On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:21:55 PM EDT, Tim Danel= iuk <tundra@tundraware.com> wrote:


On 4/16/23 20:51, Paul Pathiakis wrot= e:

> I'm sorry.... I almost ROFL when I read that FreeBSD is= used 'less' in the industry....  You 'like' both Linux and FreeBSD...=
> However, you don't seem to understand the philosoph= ical differences in the development of the two projects.


You're kidding yourself (as all true religious zea= lots do).  BSD is my preferred OS. I've been using it since
well before there was even a notion of BSD386.  But to claim= it's in wide use in commercial settings
is a particular = form of hallucination.  I have been in many, many, many data centers = as a consultant
and as an employee.  There I find Wi= ndows, SunOS, AIX, and Linux in abundance.  BSD shows up only as an em= bedded
system in things like NAS systems.  In all th= e DCs I've ever been in, among the many
thousands of serv= ers I've surveyed, I think I've found maybe one instance of a freestanding = BSD server.

Yes, there are companies l= ike Apple using a desktop derived from BSD but that's not what the users ac= tually
experience unless they choose to run at the CLI.&n= bsp; The users experience some version of the Aqua UI and all the
cruft that goes with it. Yes, companies Apache and (in the past) = Hotmail use BSD, but c'mon, that's rounding
error in the = scheme of things.  Oracle, Google, and AWS clouds are all built on lin= ux and represent
hundreds of thousands or even millions o= f payloads.  Even Azure has grudgingly made room for this.
Go try to find a mainstream cloud vendor with a standard BSD image a= vailable.  The only one I ever found
was Digital Oce= an and they're relatively small.

Linux= and Windows dominate the server room and industry by a huge margin.  = This is observably true, not
some wild opinion.  Do = I wish this were no so. Yes.  Do I think the FreeBSD community has a s= uperior
release disciple and overall higher quality quali= ty.  Certainly.  But I cooperate with Reality, I don't
engage in wishful thinking to make professional choices.  Yo= u only have to look at the number of jobs
available for L= inux experience vs. those that name BSD in any form to get a clue where the= center
of gravity is.

Every few years someone starts another one of this ridiculous "My OS, Is= Better Than Your OS"
arguments which are fundamentally u= seless.




------=_Part_4366597_372436311.1681704641046--