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Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.10.0 Subject: Re: Docker Content-Language: en-US To: FreeBSD Mailing List References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <9efb1204ede36008eb1bc83b6048d9c41ea2ab86.camel@riseup.net> From: Tim Daneliuk In-Reply-To: <9efb1204ede36008eb1bc83b6048d9c41ea2ab86.camel@riseup.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.4 (oceanview.tundraware.com [45.55.60.57]); Sun, 16 Apr 2023 10:04:51 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: 33GF4pfD064885 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-SpamCheck: not spam (whitelisted), SpamAssassin (not cached, score=-3.886, required 6, autolearn=not spam, ALL_TRUSTED -1.00, BAYES_00 -1.90, NICE_REPLY_A -0.98, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE -0.01) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.70 / 15.00]; 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DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[email-od.com:dkim] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PztlZ6LVPz3R7j X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 4/16/23 03:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Sat, 2023-04-15 at 22:00 -0500, Tim Daneliuk wrote: >> Docker is many things.  It is a virtually private filespace running over >> a common Linux kernel.  In this regard, it's basically a high- >> class version of chroot. > > Used with intellect and application-related I like Linux, chroot, > systemd-nspawn and hypervisors a lot. However, the countless container > approaches flooding linux are just odd workarounds in order not to have > to deal with fundamental things that would have to be changed. At some > point adding a layer above a layer above a layer above layer becomes > pure madness. To all intents and purposes, the only thing that matters are docker and Kubernetes (and maybe Swarm). All the rest of it is - at least for the moment - various science experiments that can be ignored for production computing. Docker alone makes a ton of sense for simple/small microservice and deployment problems. I wrote some tooling for this smaller case. See: https://gitbucket.tundraware.com/tundra/dockersand Kubernetes makes a lot of sense when you're running microservices at hundreds- or thousands- scale. But at the scale, you have to find a way to simplify service discovery, observability, a operational integrity. That's what Istio/Anthos sidecars are for. These tools have been proven in very large scale deployments by people like Netflix and Lyft. My point is that these extra pieces of tooling are not really "layers" such much as ways to manage running containers at large scale. They are not needed or recommend for smaller use cases.