From nobody Thu Apr 13 22:29:48 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PyDmg26n7z44m08 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:30:27 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yw1-x112b.google.com (mail-yw1-x112b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PyDmf6yVdz49TX for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 22:30:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112b.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-54fb615ac3dso97992207b3.2 for ; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:30:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681425025; x=1684017025; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=M+WHWU4OIe+JAhNNkJKZrqD03JTzHzogGwCH5Tsq6cA=; b=Atmc3xBHmkOu1iwjgtFOmJ7J3tkDpAUIj0n2AhVrlexPEV+Qpc6fG+K3tpDNOQiQiw 9ybmc/okzxdMq+okDbdziu2MiqmGkDfr3u/iYLMwl897/0T/gWbYk1TQ83N2Kje+toi2 OzF32qheZE1UikAjmZkIYZhqE13zkjGKhq0ScQoaG32xY4BgENr/cr8/RcrNUE3r9PdH b+R8b+4SogRjTHfVguABxALWA6XWO98ZehxwJspe8qYkmOsQXM76wtpi7f9MoqiLDoVA wfYwSYbwpm0kgSqIhio1GTuKaR5bXjCxbRBJOeLe3ULh3LFquH1jhod34EuzqZhz2n7Q ssIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681425025; x=1684017025; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=M+WHWU4OIe+JAhNNkJKZrqD03JTzHzogGwCH5Tsq6cA=; b=MGWHHcDeaNARmkuafxcuA+N0uu9/OqtdqsSst0MGpRUJURFYmnI7vy/R1hQENKWAxV 81kvqrMbs8N8PvVvVOyt4axrlxREWMBI4wvIcbBDbprcjTEhYvTCoFVJVaKPim/sgZka 3Ct4Rqyz+BRFmIa7l998NiVFU30ZrbsR1U8GZLVSqqDb1gAm5FWJPUe9+BEECmvjrC63 EfqgKT45W50iY608LWhP3RceK4093fj9uuPG6QQJWuULXwPOtzIIAUXTX6SRrp6491Vz dGTUNWTR9zicwFGNrYOKRqh8NUCFrRlBncAmDPjhbXNoJoLn98svksHbo9uB04v/wTnA kiXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9cj+rEsuV2gDUTyB7lO5yHf4arTzVmgjK9Xh8/UAofDV+mLOk6J VyT5G/4kPvqR6e3IJf2+yPgfIJYMHDElNdA0xLo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZbpuINhtiRTtwiRbhQiKseecKW4Jic5WP5k+UxwMr3rYAtqV2IFdqLouSW9KNw8nmqjAwFbysUR/uwcaTTizs= X-Received: by 2002:a81:4005:0:b0:540:e744:13ae with SMTP id l5-20020a814005000000b00540e74413aemr2486446ywn.3.1681425025217; Thu, 13 Apr 2023 15:30:25 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> <20230412150350.12f97eb2c9dd566b8c8702d2@sohara.org> <1535315680.2770963.1681309684072@mail.yahoo.com> <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <20230413233050.2f0046c3.freebsd@edvax.de> From: Mario Marietto Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2023 00:29:48 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Polytropon Cc: Miguel C , Alejandro Imass , Paul Pathiakis , "Steve O'Hara-Smith" , Tim Preston , freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005839c605f93f45b6" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PyDmf6yVdz49TX X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone here got scared that this discussion already became trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further. On Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon wrot= e: > On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:51 +0100, Miguel C wrote: > > I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause FreeBSD's > > maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBSD? > > The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, > it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that > Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which > the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore > is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of > development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability > is not a primary goal here. > > You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS? > Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is > not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because > it is not designed to do that. > > > > > Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve? > > The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_ > thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-) > > > > > I'm sure it would serve the "just > > want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some issue= s > > with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely tak= es > > some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen > mentions > > of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier. > > It looks like it is technically possible, after (!) > investing time and work into getting it done. It is > not a trivial effort. > > > > > MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP" is > > supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the d= ay > > and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user. > > You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of > Linux and then run Docker inside that VM... > > > > > I've never tried this my self [...] > > Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-) > > > > > [...] but I don't think it should be that super > > complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, t= he > > argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I use docker o= n > my > > macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I will > still > > use Linux, K8s etc. > > It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone > would already have done it as there are lots of users > and administrators who would probably love to run > Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the > Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude > from Linux development): It is a moving target and, > as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity. > > "I've never built a house, but how hard can it be? > There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-) > > > > > Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to > easy > > the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be goo= d > > for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities. > > The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for > the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party > software (like the stuff in the ports collection), > so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation. > But writing a polite message to them and asking is > never a bad idea. > > > > -- > Polytropon > Magdeburg, Germany > Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 > Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... > --=20 Mario. --0000000000005839c605f93f45b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Someone here got scared that this discussion already becam= e trollish. So,I don't know if I'm allowed to reply further.

On = Thu, Apr 13, 2023 at 11:30=E2=80=AFPM Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
On Thu, 13 Apr 2023 13:58:5= 1 +0100, Miguel C wrote:
> I also don't get why is that so complicated, is it just cause Free= BSD's
> maintainers/community don't want to even consider docker on FreeBS= D?

The core "problem" - in fact, it's not actually a problem, it's just the consequences of a design decision - is that
Docker hooks deeply into Linux kernel functioalities which
the FreeBSD kernel simply does not have. Docker therefore
is Linux-centric and Linux-specific, because the focus of
development is pointed at Linux. Cross-OS interoperability
is not a primary goal here.

You could ask: Why does Linux Firefox not run on macOS?
Why does the Mac App Store not run on "Windows"? It is
not because someone is lazy or stupid, it's just because
it is not designed to do that.



> Couldn't we just run docker on bhyve?

The word "just" is the key here: It is not a _simple_
thing. "Could we just run FreeBSD binaries on Android?" ;-)



> I'm sure it would serve the "just
> want to test this image purpose" but I suspect there will be some= issues
> with Filesytem/network, not issues per say, but more like it likely ta= kes
> some work to get this to run in easy manner, but I think I've seen= mentions
> of using sshfs or zvols to make this part easier.

It looks like it is technically possible, after (!)
investing time and work into getting it done. It is
not a trivial effort.



> MacOS and Windows use virtualization anyway, sure Docker "DESKTOP= " is
> supported but docker, but they are still using a VM at the end of the = day
> and handle the filesystem/network stuff for the user.

You could likewise use a VM to run an instance of
Linux and then run Docker inside that VM...



> I've never tried this my self [...]

Sorry, not a good prefix for a broad statement. :-)



> [...] but I don't think it should be that super
> complicated unless you plan to run docker on prod envs, I think here, = the
> argument that "right tool for the job" is very valid.... I u= se docker on my
> macOS but I'm not going to run things in prod in macbooks ofc, I w= ill still
> use Linux, K8s etc.

It's probably _quite_ complicated, or else someone
would already have done it as there are lots of users
and administrators who would probably love to run
Docker natively on FreeBSD. I'm not involved in the
Docker development, so I can only guess (or conclude
from Linux development): It is a moving target and,
as mentioned above, combined with Linux-centricity.

"I've never built a house, but how hard can it be?
There are lots of houses over there!" Sorry... ;-)



> Perhaps the FreeBSD foundation could invest a bit in getting a tool to= easy
> the way of running docker through bhyve, I do believe this would be go= od
> for user adoption, but probably there are other priorities.

The FreeBSD foundation is responsible primarily for
the FreeBSD operating system. Docker is a 3rd party
software (like the stuff in the ports collection),
so it's a bit out of scope of the FreeBSD foundation.
But writing a polite message to them and asking is
never a bad idea.



--
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...


--
Mario.
--0000000000005839c605f93f45b6--