From nobody Wed Apr 12 13:38:47 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-questions@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4PxP2P5YHRz44mvW for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PxP2P3xDxz3Qwb for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 13:39:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marietto2008@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id h198so18229323ybg.12 for ; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:39:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681306764; x=1683898764; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=CfSXxsJIxXqbY/u8JRYpL0YNOjj0S7sXeRTq/WIYCl0=; b=HSEq5ds7ib9l648j5OZ0UPV9G9zNFu8v1H8pLDXu3EdzNrGYtAUYcXVqZIzMEog4qf /YsUrw3tQGBGnnU2fyj5N6sA80amMlrk0GMcYROikoRcp98sX7O5x32DnIZ0stUuuNva UfCaM4A6RowYhqfzLzi3S38TTEhEA94E/Of5Iv1+Khb6jIw8NPi+e1e7K8V4Df4af/9s /VMfI4RzAiUpHD+HEgTcR/2m27YmifLRcsfQDIxGSjq2a1eFA8vUDGYUjQO1f6wCh70L rbU7mhevVm4QGH61wYdydX5s+Pq7w4TUCmei2DK416xC413zccyp46dlhcR42h0mtu0p qCwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1681306764; x=1683898764; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=CfSXxsJIxXqbY/u8JRYpL0YNOjj0S7sXeRTq/WIYCl0=; b=09RhLq5/Nq/t5Xt7PSnC+J1+RzSi5Tpy4krXoMipiQrNKNImp2TRH+Hk2hyj/p56i9 Z2mxEbGeS+Jlr5EgDhzcY4CvU2Jk+QKLYRyO1RihlsAFzgYoJst7BZ2CQuAlGN9ouUNc 8ywqxgMFTW75z7b0Y1FuFb02tLdOQ1KjEC8qkKfY7FpKWFL8NOUA4RKSLREx3VzzNBT5 TC95XfNaOGxJ4eF0Dmr3VX+9foODr22NZ6a6el1+QJ/q7oU4dd8b9QFQLMT14fLWwWoP VLIVvcHNG+L9/uve5Gi3G8U0fTL9sIJCSeXRSbwkdYKewoLYM4AiwsLZ4G33xjd99wrH mnJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fU/MMfAe9KmZSu+p1xkIhmtvhgbiaV0HR5NIGYMi3GdiVJm+zn c+pdlasd0VrULCPJ6G5g1LkiYFp70U2QBaD26Gf3ioCGVpPUTQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZrRyIX9co+JFqdesTcjQtxoW2O7WCRv8gYqH6f4xaBqivrcCV0eckiImu8whN3ZdCrY5eFKRH84aipApfhiZw= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d084:0:b0:b8b:edb1:95f with SMTP id h126-20020a25d084000000b00b8bedb1095fmr7518400ybg.10.1681306764053; Wed, 12 Apr 2023 06:39:24 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: User questions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-questions List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230329053443.6ADA6B6AFED5@dhcp-8e64.meeting.ietf.org> <8E16D624-2655-4A10-844A-93E4F63E9859@gromit.dlib.vt.edu> <078a1cf8-7ae2-c593-615b-f5f37fa2b3eb@timpreston.net> <06be3a1e-9319-1a21-88b9-4f87328ee127@timpreston.net> <34b4b76e-1c41-4cfb-9e86-856f01e8abc9@app.fastmail.com> <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> In-Reply-To: <6002f636-310b-a9fd-b82f-346618976983@timpreston.net> From: Mario Marietto Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2023 15:38:47 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Docker To: Tim Preston Cc: freebsd-questions Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e143905f923bc02" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4PxP2P3xDxz3Qwb X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000006e143905f923bc02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel. I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. FreeBSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm sure that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been implemented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technologies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does not work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technical problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it doesn't happen because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS developers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools that come from other types of OS cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already similar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, these system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails), even in the industry / market there are just as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins even want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there= . On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston wr= ote: > Hi Mario, > > I may not have been clear enough in my last email. > > Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies > which only exist in the Linux kernel. > > FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails. > > It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more special than Linu= x > programmers, it's just not technically possible. > > If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you > can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker > images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. > But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly. > > A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in > ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively i= n > a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille ( > https://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (https://github.com/bsdpot/pot). > > I hope some of this helps. > > Tim > > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote: > > ---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, > yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means > often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use ma= ny > of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have so= me > different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I > liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it i= s > becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love= ". > The development of Docker on FreeBSD stopped a lot of years ago. And the > reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my > opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBS= D > users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They > don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the > tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those use= rs > that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another > OS. It is some kind of sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running > Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a > whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok= ,developing > it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Dock= er > is one of those tools. > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto > wrote: > > For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it > happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of tho= se > people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an > exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, > whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a frequent visitor to > various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux > technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in > Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,the= y > work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow > the creation of bridges between different operating systems ? > > On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber > wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote: > > Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good) > > FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have > > chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a > > discriminatory attitude. > > I think you're mis-representing the position of a lot of people here; > please don't do that. > > The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based > "Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/ definition, and many people > have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling, > now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples: > > - https://github.com/samuelkarp/runj/ > - https://github.com/dfr/ocijail/ > - https://medium.com/@dfr/oci-containers-for-freebsd-512a6df2bc85 > > It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you > tried, and where it breaks with your expectations. > > While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling, > systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container > you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all > of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic. > > If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes, > use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many > FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. > It's ok to use different tools in different situations. > > A+ > Dave > > > > -- > Mario. > > > > -- > Mario. > > > --=20 Mario. --0000000000006e143905f923bc02 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
---> Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Doc= ker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.

I don't agree with this. In my humble opinion Docker can run on = FreeBSD. For sure,not using the same technology that it uses on Linux. Free= BSD does not use the kernel of Linux,so it cannot lean on it,but I'm su= re that it can lean on a lot of linux features that have already been imple= mented on FreeBSD. Maybe they should be improved. And on some other technol= ogies that can be created almost from scratch. In my opinion Docker does no= t work in FreeBSD not for technical reasons. I'm sure that the technica= l problems can be solved if there is the will,the need to overcome them. Honestly I think it doesn't happ= en because there are habits and internal beliefs in every group of OS devel= opers. I'm talking about a certain type of closed-mindedness and sense = of belonging in a group that you don't want to be scratched by tools th= at come from other types of OS cultures. Docker is not needed in FreeBSD because there are already sim= ilar tools that are working well and many systems engineers have spent time= and money to learn how to administer them. If docker were implemented, the= se system administrators would continue to use their favorite tools (jails)= , even in the industry / market there are just as many well done. Probably a very few FreeBSD admins e= ven want an influx of users from linux who could switch to freebsd because = of that tool that wasn't there before but "now" it is there.<= /span>=

On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 4:29=E2=80=AFAM Tim Preston <tim@timpreston.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20 =20
Hi Mario,

I may not have been clear enough in my last email.

Docker will NEVER run on FreeBSD, because Docker is built on technologies which only exist in the Linux kernel.

FreeBSD cannot run Linux containers, it can only run FreeBSD jails.

It's not because FreeBSD programmers think they're more speci= al than Linux programmers, it's just not technically possible.

If you want to run any of the Docker images available on the internet you can try the tooling linked by Dave, which MIGHT let you run SOME Docker images inside a FreeBSD jail, using FreeBSD's Linux compatibility layer. But these images really require a Linux kernel to run properly.

A better approach, if the applications you want to run are available in ports, or if the source code builds on FreeBSD, is to run them natively in a jail using tools similar to Docker like Bastille (http= s://bastillebsd.org/) or Pot (http= s://github.com/bsdpot/pot).

I hope some of this helps.

Tim


On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 8:45 PM, Mario Marietto wrote:
---> If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't think there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people. It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

But home users usually are poor people. To have a good computer means often to be lucky. I mainly use FreeBSD because I feel good when I use many of its tools. But it often happens that I also need to be able to have some different tool that I like because I tried it in a different system and I liked it. Docker is one of those tools. Users love it,even today,but it is becoming old. For sure there are good technical reasons behind this "love". The development of Docker on FreeBS= D stopped a lot of years ago. And the reasons for that stop is not only caused by technical reasons,in my opinion,but,as I said,even by a form of discrimination. The storic FreeBSD users have been trained using its own tools and they won't change. They don't want to spend money to develop a new/old tool that will enrich the tools park ? This mindset is not focused on the satisfaction of those users that could migrate or that want to try FreeBSD,after having used another OS. It is some kind of= sectarian mentality. Yes I can run a VM running Linux,but this will waste resources on the machine. Why should I run a whole VM if I need only to run a tool ? If the tool is not widely used,ok,developing it is not worth it. But we are talking of widely used tools here and Docker is one of those tools.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:26=E2=80=AFPM Mario Marietto <marietto2008@gmail.com> wrote:
For sure there are users / developers that are in the middle,like it happens in the political area. I like this kind of person. I'm one of those people. My criticism is against those users and developers that show an exaggerated "love" and fidelity towards a system, whether by ideology, whether by habit, or by commercial reasons. I'm a freque= nt visitor to various freebsd forums and I often read opinions radicalized on linux technologies that should not enter the freebsd world, simply because in Freebsd there are already excellent tools that do their job well. Yes,they work well,but why not add more and different tools that which would allow the creation of bridges between different operating systems ?

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Dave Cottlehuber <dch@skunkwerks.at> wrote:
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023, at 09:44, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Tim,you are wasting your time. It seems that all of these (good)
> FreeBSD developers don't want you to use Linux technologies if you have
> chosen FreeBSD as the main OS. That's not good and it sounds like a
> discriminatory attitude.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

I think you're mis-representing the position of a lo= t of people here;
please don't do that.

The fast-moving Docker.com tech has been moving towards a standards-based
"Open Container" https://opencontainers.org/= definition, and many people
have worked across the standard, the implementation, kernel, & tooling,
now in ports on FreeBSD, to make this possible. Just a few examples:


It would be great to get your feedback on one of these and see what you
tried, and where it breaks with your expectations.

While it may be possible to run many linux containers with this tooling,
systemd and other linux-specific things could be present in any container
you pull, from systemd, to filesystem requirements, and expecting all
of these to work seamlessly is unrealistic.

If you want the full Linux-compatible Docker experience, then, yes,
use Linux, either in a VM, or directly. I don't thin= k there are many
FreeBSD people who use only 1 OS, we are by and large pragmatic people.
It's ok to use different tools in different situations.

A+
Dave


--
Mario.


--
Mario.



--
Mario.<= br>
--0000000000006e143905f923bc02--