From nobody Tue Feb 20 00:37:36 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-ports@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Tf0qy6Bh1z59r9j for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 00:38:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewaynegeraghty@gmail.com) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Tf0qy3N44z4mGW for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 00:38:06 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dewaynegeraghty@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-3392b045e0aso3030948f8f.2 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 16:38:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708389484; x=1708994284; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=+JaQL/9y55XTnDvQJ+/leHQ7vZ+E1huuniCiQWOe9TM=; b=PDbealtrpMoCGt1uNopG1T8NDr1QVF21ztpW/fJIy+SHjDniQ5hGnNcCw9TKMTpL3p O3taIt61fAUT367vVUfqPcSAlyLEpQX2JZ1O2UnjzEgYOqpRWAY80HFAYV+nhHOHfvi6 5iRVRrsi7GJO6ZSBmKQuKJuAlWSC88A0r9OL0rR8NVLyVqKMT2VqwC9yNpjWJejak7I1 Rk5p1udmnaxnpJrI4TDIFuFfwWi2kdK5LCgmdIo5IQ9xbacKfoY/wOcGbXJrNYS9H46S Bo+N7xXpeXpND7YRu1pErzBSb8JePdz8jXim7t+UbxJR8do4F3mo/fTKWWHvbW4Evvxl GWZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708389484; x=1708994284; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=+JaQL/9y55XTnDvQJ+/leHQ7vZ+E1huuniCiQWOe9TM=; b=g6Hfiy3NdFbfh2UjTiVq1UYMoeW7xF3rXtRi3FmcmnVO8x1AyBSK/X+CM3T0XDLoPe siTrek3QB5jswE5n23NOzTh56kbxAzxXMXTKjVe+kTOi9oAD9Z9zxk6xPzUGKsagx6N3 g5t9avA3VcT7cKaSXAGsvZb+Er+4fA7lbfOSe6jIgDR0dR6zGg1AttEloEmP3OOInMWk am5PK6STHHay21POcSRew9k+E+9qaAZo5GeMN+TDk1tgQ3O83LznBes+3zFbwOsu0P/b D/rbs6c6+VipRuqXvdF1Ssnh/kTWaPt302oBvarYQVTlOsD3b6yge8XyfAjou/barpdI TI2Q== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXTxusZsOOFhkeCm0cOxRb7nDvUa1g6oAWQLA55ssMMVwzK2hVWyZ6OHbMagivkx0dnwHCs02a5yKPUpIUct2QO+BsxZ/4ItcwN X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yx3H6IBtk3x+Zn25zOLY8nkh2Ldyfmgtr/igeiH1E30o8tsy4jL zQDfnb6IFUrOW2DfNRF1yuf3RGAJpFXcgY73cknLBU0nSqvGLififMKm+5BeSs3v4EQHP/w1fom Mdif5JKJXEtuLoBYEdniXybaLD/I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFBP0xsqjIFkeik94FRwXwi2ISoYLQmRJ2Qr3cqhztOS+n56gF7RkwrCnIvcRDrQsQg1AGmq/4G/IAXWY/Q1zQ= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f04e:0:b0:33d:269e:700e with SMTP id t14-20020adff04e000000b0033d269e700emr7337423wro.9.1708389483778; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 16:38:03 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87B38D6C-1D83-4158-B03B-F4C8EA396DD1.ref@yahoo.com> <87B38D6C-1D83-4158-B03B-F4C8EA396DD1@yahoo.com> <20240219104333.6ecff336@rimwks.local> <8C4AB1AF-139D-4144-867C-6AD1AE1E1307@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <8C4AB1AF-139D-4144-867C-6AD1AE1E1307@yahoo.com> From: Dewayne Geraghty Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 11:37:36 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FreeBSD ports community is broken [port building configuration notes] To: Mark Millard Cc: Rozhuk Ivan , aryehfriedman@gmail.com, FreeBSD Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000051971f0611c56c73" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Tf0qy3N44z4mGW X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_RCPT(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] --00000000000051971f0611c56c73 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" It seems that the ports developers have a tool that they would like everyone to use, while members of the wider community want choice. Context For my part I appreciated Hubbard's pkg_* tools. Later pkg* and the ports infrastructure underwent substantial change. After a few years pkg and the ports infrastructure settled down, improving the build flow. The ports infrastructure and maintainers' Makefiles enable the task of building applications tremendously simple. Though I've often cursed the constant additions to the ports infrastructure (/usr/ports/Mk, Makefile syntax, pkg), the improvements are accessible, understandable and substantially transparent. This is a better end-user experience. Poudriere adds another layer to the pkg -> ports infrastructure -> Makefile flow. Which is ok, but the changes are often opaque and near impossible for end-users to change. portmaster shell isn't easy to navigate but it is a simple tool that fits the needs of very many builders. The end-user should be the topic of focus and keeping them engaged and using the FreeBSD platform with 'easy to build applications' the objective which leads to advocacy and growth. History As a newbie I used the packages that were available in FreeBSD 2.2.8 which flourished my use of "the system". Over time I realised that the ports maintainer's option choices didn't reflect my needs. Now I have 490 changes to the ports options and modified 233 ports' Makefiles and files/. This customisation is based, in priority order: security, features, performance. So for me the ports system is fantastic, without it, it would be impossible to maintain the 2400+ ports that I use on our servers. An expectation that only packages should be used by our wider community is a false assumption for anything other than novice personal use. Changing the ports infrastructure so that a build requires poudriere is wrong and as we're seeing divisive. The PR's are also a cause for hesitancy (see ref below) Regards, Dewayne Ref: 1. https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__open__&list_id=672566&query_format=advanced&short_desc=ports-mgmt%2Fpoudriere&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?bug_status=__open__&list_id=672566&query_format=advanced&short_desc=ports-mgmt%2Fpkg&short_desc_type=allwordssubstr --00000000000051971f0611c56c73 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It seems that the ports developers h= ave a tool that they would like everyone to use, while members of the wider= community want choice.

Context
For = my part I appreciated Hubbard's pkg_* tools.=C2=A0 Later pkg* and the p= orts infrastructure underwent substantial change.=C2=A0 After a few years p= kg and the ports infrastructure settled down, improving the build flow.=C2= =A0 The ports infrastructure and maintainers' Makefiles enable the task= of building applications tremendously simple.=C2=A0 Though I've often = cursed the constant additions to the ports infrastructure (/usr/ports/Mk, M= akefile syntax, pkg), the improvements are accessible, understandable and s= ubstantially=C2=A0 transparent.=C2=A0 This is a better end-user experience.=

Poudriere adds another layer to the pkg ->= ports infrastructure -> Makefile flow.=C2=A0 Which is ok, but the chang= es are often opaque and near impossible for end-users to change.=C2=A0 port= master shell isn't easy to navigate but it is a simple tool that fits t= he needs of very many builders.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The en= d-user should be the topic of focus and keeping them engaged and using the = FreeBSD platform with 'easy to build applications' the objective wh= ich leads to advocacy and growth.

History
As a newbie I used the packages that were available in FreeBSD 2.2.8 whic= h flourished my use of "the system".=C2=A0 Over time I realised t= hat the ports maintainer's option choices didn't reflect my needs.= =C2=A0 Now I have 490 changes to the ports options and modified 233 ports&#= 39; Makefiles and files/.=C2=A0 This customisation is based, in priority or= der: security, features, performance. So for me the ports system is fantast= ic, without it, it would be impossible to maintain the 2400+ ports that I u= se on our servers.=C2=A0


An ex= pectation that only packages should be used by our wider community is a fal= se assumption for anything other than novice personal use.=C2=A0 Changing t= he ports infrastructure so that a build requires poudriere is wrong and as = we're seeing divisive.=C2=A0 The PR's are also a cause for hesitanc= y (see ref below)

Regards, Dewayne
=
Ref:=C2=A0
https://bugs.freebsd.o= rg/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?bug_status=3D__open__&list_id=3D672566&quer= y_format=3Dadvanced&short_desc=3Dports-mgmt%2Fpkg&short_desc_type= =3Dallwordssubstr
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