From nobody Sun Feb 18 11:18:11 2024 X-Original-To: ports@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Td37j3xZQz53tJJ for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:18:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Td37j24qdz4Mx6; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 11:18:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2d09cf00214so30167231fa.0; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:18:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708255103; x=1708859903; darn=freebsd.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=Zux/pj9lYrfNrnOlxCHb8buftA0ZqkwQZRk3qbJl64s=; b=ZijptSlxYZqfgTcPACgS6sS9ztm13njaZFKsYNysn1LatC4Azk0eO7rE4tSo9Gbtsj y+O1P+r1KoTDDcurK2jt7NEJEczJFZrju9v2YcWf/5JyF+bXDYkpjj1qtpVamKU7mvU8 vVbHxVa0kEiz/13KAwPTQFqZjafbGssrJevwe0iFbVj3CwREax43cLWw7e2ylbriWbAq GQ+CVigzPW0SBy2hpMwr92KNPsAvp1NsUNKzMcdWA4LbrwA0DUnCHLSRnUU8WU/pdMpY QAXmxawyFCSJwtIaYiFC81Q3UwpnKNGS9SSpjJK3tWrtELdn+3thedPa09p7vFCaYiwG fxCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708255103; x=1708859903; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Zux/pj9lYrfNrnOlxCHb8buftA0ZqkwQZRk3qbJl64s=; b=i8JasmFk0HOzExNiItCFRLSaGRX7szod/Esog5+n36lqLDnSmmedze4q5ceaR7WFhK ksDtBoSgvPbbeNff5fhjE9uBRowDAnbE5AbsuDmZBAD2++DE6aThSA1g0UAx02uRtZ8C nJVCtGXjKqfZbm31St7u+8DZNg+XZo+BihcDdBEaXYOo/jWXqjHF14a2HXa21hA4kXmb 4N2348yO1S9vlRaNc8ZpExZhZqZQgtl9dJ15jUdnM9GMieyV5p+8hFWAHxeHwKYjfN/b 0mKtYDr62tK4RMMPr3dIPmPvpVmYazhOz2eiG0UFaPyw9cW3HN9vQjOXxSYhbPWpSyGk jpOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxVXo2mdIO1D9XBFPoZFTosTsr0B7Yv06s7qs1YtV85fk0VLL4t 3Bdt8wdx7NYRedIi62hdOWw82zeUbq/rMaQQ+7jxs0PNpWd1e0wJpTDnabtI1I8FzCM/70mkRoQ 5d4XpCr65qsQBVYE7VKP+XU/pUkqgyAoW X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEwnoKpXgtp5iaoN1MNgh+J5pI7ML29nrgrGcQu/qukzx+Dw/LNE77d77Z0/j6bZRDOD4CMazKhDCxADkMnPlE= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:51a3:0:b0:511:7f2f:47a3 with SMTP id f3-20020ac251a3000000b005117f2f47a3mr6699245lfk.8.1708255103025; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 03:18:23 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-ports List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20240218015843.34c5d078@rimwks.local> <7q6ep7m2eee6yqtxftlwkhuwdkssd74vjow55txms7lkokazfu@grrqllhefges> <20240218174921.a8082649142dd43a469bebfa@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <4ekno7iwxvdlw4xeholcrxuuazmcstxkqyidrz27ni43lzu6wg@3ro6r5b2vhoi> In-Reply-To: From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 06:18:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Re: FreeBSD ports community is broken To: Gleb Popov Cc: ports@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Td37j24qdz4Mx6 X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 6:11=E2=80=AFAM Gleb Popov wro= te: > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 1:37=E2=80=AFPM Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 5:16=E2=80=AFAM Felix Palmen wrote: > > > > > > * Tomoaki AOKI [20240218 17:49]: > > > > [a lot about automotive regulations] > > > > > > That's a nice example how comparisons of entirely different domains > > > almost always go completely wrong. > > > > I guess you have never heard of software engineering? > > > > Also the OP is 100% right there is a lot of "brokenish" in the ports > > community for example no maintainer should ever be banned from -ports@ > > but I have been for reasons never explained to me and thus am at a > > severe disadvantage when asking for help (like how to switch from yacc > > to bison without errors and such). > > > > > > > > To start with, cars (and especially individual parts) typically aren'= t > > > subject to consumer customizations, and if they are, it's way outside > > > the manufacturer's responsibility. Here, we were talking about break= age > > > that only happened when you customized your port builds. We aren't > > > talking about security-relevant breakage either. > > > > Yes they are customized all the time. What do you think "options"? > > (same for planes.) > > > > And sadly (speaking as the maintainer of 3 different ports > > [devel/aegis, devel/fhist, devel/tailor and when I get time to > > unbreaking it and taking maintership devel/cook]) there has to good > > customizations that can be done after market without breaking the > > ports (for example we use the actual tools above significantly then > > how they where designed to be used but due to being the maintainer > > still need to maintain the orginal behavior also) > > > > > > > > > > As explained in the PR as well, of course we add (temporary) workarou= nds > > > to *individual* ports when it seems necessary. We certainly don't add > > > workarounds to the framework itself unless it's perfectly clear there > > > will be no other way. Not even considering yet that just fiddling wit= h > > > CFLAGS has the potential to break a lot of other things when done > > > globally. > > > > The framework has been broken for a long time. It should not require > > prodiere running on a supermassive machine to work (in many cases > > portmaster and make install recursion fail where prodiere works). > > It does not. The thing is: contributor submissions should be buildable > in Poudriere because this is the way official packages are produced. > You are free to build on the host locally, but it hides some errors > which then break the build on our cluster. Without Poudriere you just > have to be more cautious and perform more thorough testing. Wonderful: Are we now moving to the binary pkg only for mere mortals then. For example my desktop is a fairly standard 12 core machine with 24 GB of RAM and plenty of disk space (on SSD's) but yet Proudrie slows the machine down so much that xorg becomes unresponsive or the machine used for any other purpose (yes I know this can be customized to make it work but that *SHOULD NOT* be the default case). One reason I started with FreeBSD in the first place and not linsucks is it is/(was?!?!?) completely buildable from source (including 3d party packages) on a completely normal desktop (at least til about 2018 and I started using FreeBSD in 1993). So when is it going to be possible for a mere mortal like the machine above to use portmaster or recursive make install since Poudrie is a machine killer