From nobody Sun Jan 12 02:16:51 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4YW0dy00MBz5kK3W for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2025 03:06:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4YW0dw363mz4snT for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2025 03:06:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=dec.sakura.ne.jp header.s=s2405 header.b=nlTuIpWz; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp designates 153.125.133.21 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=dec.sakura.ne.jp Received: from kalamity.joker.local (124-18-43-234.area1a.commufa.jp [124.18.43.234]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 50C2Gp4Y076679 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 2025 11:16:52 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=dec.sakura.ne.jp; s=s2405; t=1736648212; bh=GTndGheZIDlteI+ASrC5hDsYCld/fBc34N9v8PxMrH0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=nlTuIpWzp+ktI89lu7C7nRuXR1wpGZbZFW1RrxJy/zkWpTK+sRs9LMZRpv7fAymMI sZyqmHXo6w+S5M94H9+wE3NAYWXNgOTxQHJtbLMHLo81FwSDD1QW7tUo/hyMQ87s6K yXQgF/Wnh0NtWTx4ZhRLz/GRQiHoaCMgn5gjiy40= Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2025 11:16:51 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: widening ticks Message-Id: <20250112111651.e76aea0843ac8f85043c7f10@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: References: <20250111131106.4d2657de20eeed7eef5c0b15@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250112043543.86b303419f954b2b287d39d1@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <20250112075038.4cd7fc680400e07a32a13f1a@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.2) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YW0dw363mz4snT X-Spamd-Bar: ++ X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.20 / 15.00]; URIBL_RED(3.50)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:dkim]; SUSPICIOUS_URL_IN_SUSPICIOUS_MESSAGE(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.998]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ANON_DOMAIN(0.10)[]; BAD_REP_POLICIES(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.10)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp,none]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:+]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; GREYLIST(0.00)[pass,body]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(0.00)[dec.sakura.ne.jp:s=s2405]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(0.00)[+ip4:153.125.133.16/28:c]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1] Replying to ML only, as Mark's gmail address seems to block previous one. On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 18:00:12 -0500 Mark Johnston wrote: > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 07:50:38AM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 17:35:36 -0500 > > Mark Johnston wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 04:35:43AM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > > > On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 11:34:06 -0500 > > > > Mark Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 11, 2025 at 01:11:06PM +0900, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, 8 Jan 2025 18:07:47 -0500 > > > > > > Mark Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 09, 2025 at 12:18:48AM +0200, Konstantin Belousov wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 08, 2025 at 04:31:16PM -0500, Mark Johnston wrote: > > > > > > > > > The global "ticks" variable counts hardclock ticks, it's widely used in > > > > > > > > > the kernel for low-precision timekeeping. The linuxkpi provides a very > > > > > > > > > similar variable, "jiffies", but there's an incompatibility: the former > > > > > > > > > is a signed int and the latter is an unsigned long. It's not > > > > > > > > > particularly easy to paper over this difference, which has been > > > > > > > > > responsible for some nasty bugs, and modifying drivers to store the > > > > > > > > > jiffies value in a signed int is error-prone and a maintenance burden > > > > > > > > > that the linuxkpi is supposed to avoid. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be nice to provide a compatible implementation of jiffies. I > > > > > > > > > can see a few approaches: > > > > > > > > > - Define a 64-bit ticks variable, say ticks64, and make hardclock() > > > > > > > > > update both ticks and ticks64. Then #define jiffies ticks64 on 64-bit > > > > > > > > > platforms. This is the simplest to implement, but it adds extra work > > > > > > > > > to hardclock() and is somewhat ugly. > > > > > > > > > - Make ticks an int64_t or a long and convert our native code > > > > > > > > > accordingly. This is cleaner but requires a lot of auditing to avoid > > > > > > > > > introducing bugs, though perhaps some code could be left unmodified, > > > > > > > > > implicitly truncating the value to an int. For example I think > > > > > > > > > sched_pctcpu_update() is fine. I've gotten an amd64 kernel to compile > > > > > > > > > and boot with this change, but it's hard to be confident in it. This > > > > > > > > > approach also has the potential downside of bloating structures that > > > > > > > > > store a ticks value, and it can't be MFCed. > > > > > > > > > - Introduce a 64-bit ticks variable, ticks64, and > > > > > > > > > #define ticks ((int)ticks64). This requires renaming any struct > > > > > > > > > fields and local vars named "ticks", of which there's a decent number, > > > > > > > > > but that can be done fairly mechanically. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there another solution which avoids these pitfalls? If not, should > > > > > > > > > we go ahead with one of these approaches? If so, which one? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cannot do this in C, but can in asm: > > > > > > > > .data > > > > > > > > .globl ticksl, ticks > > > > > > > > .type ticksl, @object > > > > > > > > .type ticks, @object > > > > > > > > ticksl: .quad > > > > > > > > .size ticksl, 8 > > > > > > > > ticks =ticksl /* for little-endian */ > > > > > > > > /* ticks =ticksl + 4 for big-endian */ > > > > > > > > .size ticks, 4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then update only ticksl in the hardclock(). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I implemented your suggestion here: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D48383 > > > > > > > > > > > > As this is already committed to main, commenting here instead of review > > > > > > D48383. > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I'm too paranoid and overlooking something, but... > > > > > > > > > > > > *If "jiffies" in LinuxKPI is really unsigned, isn't there any > > > > > > possibilities that relies on its value to be larger than > > > > > > 0x7fffffffffffffff as a threshold? > > > > > > (Yes, it should be silly and non-realistic, but theoretically > > > > > > possible.) > > > > > > > > > > Ideally we would have > > > > > > > > > > #define jiffies ((unsigned long)ticksl) > > > > > > > > > > in the linuxkpi, but some Linux code uses "jiffies" as a struct field or > > > > > local variable name, so this doesn't quite work. > > > > > > > > > > In practice, the value is usually assigned to an unsigned long or used > > > > > as an operand where it would be implicitly promoted to an unsigned type, > > > > > so we don't see any incompatibilities. > > > > > > > > > > When jiffies is an int, code like the following can misbehave: > > > > > > > > > > unsigned long remain, timeout = jiffies + const; > > > > > ... > > > > > remain = timeout - jiffies; > > > > > if ((long)remain < 0) > > > > > /* timed out */ > > > > > > > > > > If (int)timeout and jiffies have different signs, as might happen close > > > > > to a rollover, the comparison won't work as expected. > > > > > > > > > > Linux has some macros (time_after() etc.) which are supposed to be used > > > > > instead of direct comparisons, but they're not always used. > > > > > > > > So ticksl should better be unsigned long if there's no reason to keep > > > > it signed, isn't it? > > > > > > Well, I kept it signed since it's meant to be similar in usage to ticks. > > > With a signed counter, you can check test whether a value has passed by > > > looking at the sign of the difference between ticks(l) and that value > > > (modulo rollover). With an unsigned counter, you need some casting, as > > > in the example above. > > > > > > > > > *Is anywhere checking carry (sign) bit for int on LP32? > > > > > > Maybe it would be the reason if "jiffies" in LinuxKPI is really > > > > > > unsigned. > > > > > > > > > > Could you provide an example of what you mean? > > > > > > > > Not an example of code, but for example, when ticksl is at > > > > 0x7fffffffffffffff (positive value), ticks shoule be 0xffffffff > > > > (negative value), if I read the diff correctly. > > > > The same thing starts happening ticksl is at 0x0000000080000000 throug > > > > 0x00000000ffffffff and values alike. So signs (carry bits, usually the > > > > leftmost bit of each) should be checked separately for ticksl and ticks. > > > > > > That's true, but I can't see why any code would care about this? > > > > While ticks is defined as (signed) int, it shoule be turnaround when it > > reaches at 0x7fffffff (as incrementing it causes overflow). > > Is ticks allowed to be minus value? My guess is that it is monotonic > > counter. > > Yes, INT_MAX ticks elapse in approximately 25 days at 1000Hz. In fact, > ticks is initialized to INT_MAX - in subr_param.c so that > it wraps around shortly after boot, after which it is negative. > > Kernel code should not care about the sign of ticks. Thanks! I've overlooked it. BTW, does tickl restricted with INT_MAX, too? (In detail, although tickl has the type long, but actually the range of the values used are restricted with INT_MAX?) -- Tomoaki AOKI