From nobody Tue Sep 10 17:35:01 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4X39pd1zpDz5WH7S for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:35:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Received: from mailgate.Leidinger.net (bastille.leidinger.net [89.238.82.207]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature ECDSA (P-256) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailgate.leidinger.net", Issuer "E5" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4X39pc3gNfz49nH; Tue, 10 Sep 2024 17:35:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Alexander@Leidinger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=leidinger.net; s=outgoing-alex; t=1725989750; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=LlCpHHNR+YYxJCZSt23qLIfc0U+CaptRUuGCAcu+fyw=; b=IL9vS4VNbYGzu4R3x82xXjYLt+Lpr6dXlbaiEcMg2fasj2Nrk1Th4FOOc9QQmz7cGUghXv CYGsq73R0S9nZxUwcht+qxaRuNW3S81mGmz3K//Lbb3S+hwFJCiC5NP/Ec9cG3YgYTVX/3 pKjh5kH/3quep0E1xhctWvaN0ODygFklVkrOReOFe8+FTDEJhLKfIoO2h405Tum/EeTDGr 3oUrPYZTW17InQ3D6Bdl39HsAAUzF8zQGX23ziRLhnoCiLPNfkRtkMefgGolXzUGcojfjy eZht1kIwIApHSUAM88Cg2bIIQ3+9XID6654XnJh0hq0wCLdISm43cvzvmNh6sw== Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2024 19:35:01 +0200 From: Alexander Leidinger To: Olivier Certner Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) In-Reply-To: <2372745.viN5riZIyJ@ravel> References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <2611284.jQUcPV6jne@ravel> <202409091859.489Ixdia086264@critter.freebsd.dk> <2372745.viN5riZIyJ@ravel> Message-ID: <1fc46e4362bd11816d63027ec8cb8f09@Leidinger.net> Organization: No organization, this is a private message. Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_69c8eedef1f663d2e98b9ba660ea59f6"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:34240, ipnet:89.238.64.0/18, country:DE] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4X39pc3gNfz49nH This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --=_69c8eedef1f663d2e98b9ba660ea59f6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Am 2024-09-10 11:05, schrieb Olivier Certner: [your point of view] > This is only my view, but I have the feeling it is implicitly shared by > many. I'm very interested in hearing whether it is more or less > conform to reality and what people think about it as of now and for > FreeBSD's future. I share a similar point of view. The difference is ... below. > That said, I also think this debate is mostly independent from the > possibility of building FreeBSD without having to rebuild a full > compiler every time. It is however relevant to the proposal of > removing LLVM's code from 'src', as this has bad consequences > (according to the principles I listed) that we probably can, and > should, remedy with tooling, although, as the saying goes, the daemon > is in the details. IMO it doesn't hurt to move the toolchain out of src, as long as we have a port, e.g. freebsd/toolchain-for-version-X (or whatever we want to call it), which is buildable on all supported release we want to support the build of FreeBSD-X. As we support to build FreeBSD also on Linux and OS-X, we would also need to have support to make it not too hard to build said toolchain on those systems. And I go even further, I would not only mind to install a port for a compiler, I would also be ok to install a port to install a tool which handles the build (replacing make in src). I would be ok to run "pkg install/update X Y Z" to be able to do "cd /usr/src; do_build freebsd && do_install freebsd". I fully agree that it should be easy to build the base system, to do what we do today, and I think is would be beneficial if apart from "make installworld" if we could also update via "pkg upgrade". I think we could provide what we provide currently while at the same time reap some benefits from having those parts managed in ports. IMO there are a lot of benefits with such an approach, be it system hardening, compile time, and more. I would not want to move everything to ports (toolchain yes, build system yes, now that we switched to DMA: sendmail yes, openssl/kerberos no -> too much integration with other parts), but I would not mind having a ports-like approach for src separate from ports (I don't know if pkgbase fits this or not, I haven't looked at it, but if I can define a pkg repo for base and populate it from e.g. "make pkgrepo DESTDIR=xxx" or similar and then just need to run pkg upgrade that would be nice). Bye, Alexander. -- http://www.Leidinger.net Alexander@Leidinger.net: PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild@FreeBSD.org : PGP 0x8F31830F9F2772BF --=_69c8eedef1f663d2e98b9ba660ea59f6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc; size=833 Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEER9UlYXp1PSd08nWXEg2wmwP42IYFAmbgg1QACgkQEg2wmwP4 2IZz2BAAiXiD5ZAL2Gloc2AZgEKpd7jQqAc3Tx52BadmNt7W+ru/V2Lduckpp9KS iWP8nVOepMzyZpQVH2hV+Uv0Ql9OAowoscsLOlNEA+hwRluzHaBf/P11Fv7wRT50 DSw9Ygar1e2BtYNk7BkjGADcH5XJ29AgvzLepKnONYTShFC2kpzpPtBnuDTHvRN0 GuM8kDoeWV7kxrB/wVvI8F/kx+HysaEdfQog/2RcWN2/ovv7mXbdzlyhKgCM5WA0 Tt5fvmVCMnaSj0gbqcLvcgiekRECxgf3UEwwCUbhDBVhqa3dIp3Dx9LM4i2nCnzz 8+IMTUOYHVVZkRLh3EzMmuugXOBmC83Fo9I7moHtoQ3nttkS2mMIgX+PHLTNxgS4 TPjAClkhBgce7Hfgc2PshBtJ4rcVj8ocjpC3n1DbnUN7ZYq0NCFhjXAS4nhV0NFZ XXHiCWOXgBqB1srx/U3P17B/N49EXWOw6K60/xWgx7BHbkgsvW0a2gKn04DrgOKz uwo/KVd54yOTKulsy8Lz+9Vg4IvFazTXmMHynnBxEn2YGfivwxNEGyqE3aMGQOwe WlfnRci0orwF3OIpSFxJsJNmXw47bY5GKz/8D4dxEPizO8v4Fp09uDL6uqY+zVSd 7BUdyC9ywyBzZbhZyH2K7CxtyE7l0SNvllhIKqBOu6p5riuiXr8= =/63J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_69c8eedef1f663d2e98b9ba660ea59f6--