From nobody Wed Sep 04 06:35:23 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WzCRR270Sz5VF7K for ; Wed, 04 Sep 2024 06:35:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [45.76.218.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WzCRP0Zz3z4863 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2024 06:35:28 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lain@fair.moe) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=076.ne.jp header.s=dkim header.b=WVko4UBE; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lain@fair.moe has no SPF policy when checking 45.76.218.69) smtp.mailfrom=lain@fair.moe Received: from mail.076.ne.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WzCRJ5FJfzW0mB for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:35:24 +0900 (JST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=076.ne.jp; h= user-agent:in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type :mime-version:references:message-id:subject:to:from:date; s= dkim; t=1725431724; x=1728023725; bh=yU52crzaX/WvHfpKxOBWpZYzLNL PH+Z712XMErWSPTs=; b=WVko4UBEoPTJ//sKH7OBq2iH46kEixYX4QK80MoQvgK wISnF84k0Lfhcu246+taNqZ+NIS35pM7UZatB+GsKTi8hc2//MSP05P32wf3Lqum b2Z44T9UgDMVE0JzzPV5FXIiqpp8sjESBn9RRgEQCo0ZGBzFlKC+omBN/gEiaUBb ZGiDbFHUCCjza8XBynMmbbGDkA9Nug7lPi34bPJikXlaDq6qm12WAoatGspSeROC wZm7wxjctq5VtebW5C52xFJikUaRAoItyovyAgLj3XfJ+Q/wI7Httduq+9EQ2irB gvQEf0XB5jkZkkG1MzkQu/eADXZ+sGmRR+jCt5Ay0QA== X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at guest.guest Received: from mail.076.ne.jp ([127.0.0.1]) by mail.076.ne.jp (mail.076.ne.jp [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ubCLNBnOtx-a for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:35:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.fair.moe (124.110.12.171.ap.gmobb-fix.jp [124.110.12.171]) by mail.076.ne.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4WzCRH6mJLzW0lR for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:35:23 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 15:35:23 +0900 From: "lain." To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) Message-ID: <3wqj34x43r6pyah6fxrzbya7soz3ywe7bdk4poihaeh3hm2d6a@vwk3nh4jxl2r> X-Location: =?utf-8?B?IkVhcnRoL+WcsOeQgyI=?= X-Operating-System: "OpenBSD" References: <202409031131.483BVdax004602@critter.freebsd.dk> <202409031503.aa12667@berenice.pkmab.se> List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="647i2t4rgj6a2gr2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Autocrypt: addr=(null); prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQGNBGHVL30BDAC2g9WjfETVgMHoWqAQdNDzTFEnuIginZzZdx5CpkBwAeQZexW5Eo/9C1anl4F e0d3KeOFfLMBlaTohsfgvlNyOE8iVyWi5b4Op4cvSfUVm7vQvm+axVVDjXA0o6H4cOWp4etxKfb lD8/kO7WbvMxGeu2IyENoUXZR6/mr1Y6TOWkouTzbWFB1vOxMn68UMouuk4fYf6K3E7KavUMUqu ME3nqFjlKtyQBQmvpe4SnPVnjlOgIHTz9ffGV4l07j3QeCetR2h+CgOFgb1SNLdgxDCuDAdh0iF fGrPQP4jA7BNOcNBdUrkzuNAXDK4H8GB+Z3Pxc2+7jmtPWMPvmpCaZw2jPw2gaey3HPbhxvM1jX gPqLNnr3hKEFGkGPcXwpuxU9saoLOOArLACOkIy9G3GtaU26IJYLCMSi2N8M873oyFOShtcarNY lqetrJ/37tPxdVlOizE0ZB6VD+v6iFpUeHh9aGAiaTIYjM/tfMVUBHjtoQUrJfR8ONxdd1OuHZr e8AEQEAAbQh56We5bGx5byY5piOIDxrYW5heWFtYUAwNzYubmUuanA+iQHOBBMBCAA4AhsDBQsJ CAcCBhUKCQgLAgQWAgMBAh4BAheAFiEEXqMTFPwNvHspnw/iU5MGhC0WaM0FAmVQVRoACgkQU5M GhC0WaM0atAv7B/9RsNYsjeCbwDSYqN41A7qipucfxdPpabDeqQgeCYuFPzAaCKl1u+HpF2bb9/ euJlml2pOj4jOKbPr0XyzfDDJEQgHCM7H+mg7CgdpWKeMbOodIgJ4I/rg/a6cVUXZijtrCOXURM eAObcvQRTNTtNqePDgcJ20/3vEB8TPJLbO7Va0YQ0qH9gC36sgmQhksG5UMEpBlStnrY9St+9VX wSB2J3exLt6T2SCCmPM0IG3kAgbtSCzT08MfCHe3s3PL4fqW2SuJeW8p17EzrUFuOhTuQs1oOmJ +2vww4w+1TL5Km45KdxosvzcEzLOh0g+9ml7O2fnVtR3jvSzijFJJCcrn5+Di1EyjrhinEcQQ1+ Oh270wW/NtwWSBQ/peZb2iiuD7Ry/6zgYlLuASCoSXkOZWH76+zRDIEEx4XX3B0bey8qPgyEvXo OFIt9CHCOGwbDVKx0LgXxzYx6JzvJB4xlrQ9zMMmet2GIT6JUIALA25P9jgRep4elNMH9SxiYk0 uQGNBGHVL30BDACdui3F1uwOwgZ8y0zsL2c3Qw6kFVW4sp2ql7w9hz3IbSO7kTrRUqvZ7Wn97AB LRr4piml02S/ljtdlU4P3Hq1hrnRwReG3AWQjJByhZms4VU3QWauUbv/pZti5vuuB7BEmP2txPr npfBBJW5DdPnebc+BecnhsJRE7jegt8XpDWixxyAwmDdmz0hhjL/dYgGzAfx3RD3SZ5c0KhqEHX 5oTOND8/ncInK7hWB1zBq3oaPB2sfzDiUL5eBk+SPvsSoz8rBBsGGnrBX/BIGTIzQ6nB1AIqeze Rcz4R0j/g67/2yz2puwYzr+3QjjfkK4p4ZYuG7nd41CQUWxy3lgUz9kCnxWcR50AHAQhhQGPZKy hicGU1JyJUZMxqyTslSkPa6ziiC2FCOJ77hZV2Ow+4y9usWkTo6Xuce3gfAGV6xgDLarl/P2hN+ DCIV4INlBKj70WaQg2ZlaKatGgVcCrbY5X/PbI9nEFMVOpjo6nXXhf/WI1mRH3lXQJGuiawF8Lm PkAEQEAAYkBtgQYAQgAIAIbDBYhBF6jExT8Dbx7KZ8P4lOTBoQtFmjNBQJlUFUiAAoJEFOTBoQt FmjNfbsL/2jYau5JOYIE0+qjeXe/skuUJ6pRrthXGI/ap7id/XVi7P9IZSDrVEsetNzBvR+9fiu pP1nwAaNS9MaNTb7dwdKutRjrj/X2kFj1HCMJJPJIfmQVdrCaA7AnrBMx4YgA2eAg899LN4v/j5 Y1ljoBxxxJ7OVw30uGCysiMgfQKNFKKRiKMqcfyzF2SImhTO0xBvkjamTmupY0MZdgoK0LDI0bQ dTDOsQJa9D9d25DnH8oCNttapFx9NhVA3+1TG9bJF1JukRyYuHyn7m9GP21hpBjBbvgNtLsZT5a 772XAem0Ro5qLT1BUv+R1B+EtffjKYp8Rhy4VBuSUx3e8ELOdIe+ok1XhrnA5xeMVlPwEADO4jp R09BcYQzA6Fjjo9/yGx1n0TEeYBHfLCggBZlgC66J1XNDIjWc2rNiLUCZh/kZAmlGbG2+3tNFlR DgmMeOKxwPO73VbuJbcMwx7sBNu9TzH2DMVLg8OHzWD6KNg8pYrwVugk1xNjvOroSLqN96uA== User-Agent: NeoMutt/20240201 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.89 / 15.00]; SIGNED_PGP(-2.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.990]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[076.ne.jp:s=dkim]; MIME_GOOD(-0.20)[multipart/signed,text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[fair.moe]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:20473, ipnet:45.76.192.0/19, country:US]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[076.ne.jp:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WzCRP0Zz3z4863 --647i2t4rgj6a2gr2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2024=E5=B9=B409=E6=9C=8803=E6=97=A5 07:36, the silly Alan Somers claimed= to have said: I know I reply off Alan, but just to keep it somewhat clean, I'll reply to anyone since my last reply. About C developers being in decline, I actually disagree with that. I have seen younger generations getting interested in C the more they get overwhelmed by the amount of new languages to chose from. And even in the modern languages like Rust or Zig, C still serves as a baseline, so even if those people were to learn any of the modern "low level" languages, they'll learn C eventually anyway. About chosing Rust over C++, C++ might have been a more natural choice =66rom C, but C++ is significantly more bloated and deals with lots of technical debt, which in C is still very minor, despite being older. So even if you rewrite a C program into C++, you'll still be at least doubling the compile times. About DARPA's research, researches in general conducted over the past 130 years or so are mostly just bought and paid for by special interest groups, so not really something you should be taking too seriously, unless it's a large scale randomized control group study, and it's reproducable. I wouldn't doubt that The Rust Foundation put lots of money into DARPA to make them come to the conclusion that we should in fact all rewrite decades upon decades worth of C and C++ code into Rust for no reason. --=20 lain. PGP public key: https://fair.moe/lain.asc --647i2t4rgj6a2gr2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEABYKAB0WIQRjt7VGft6AEgroX7Nt5cCzjCJFhwUCZtf/qAAKCRBt5cCzjCJF h9XXAP0RpwX1sA64zzXFsAHS+QxsZJI8eQ+2OavnpYVftozMdAEA8lMjoRu7LSU9 hJTszpKA7g7/mQl+IjcjasCECG1elwA= =2n4k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --647i2t4rgj6a2gr2--