From nobody Tue Sep 03 23:24:10 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4Wz1st0sZyz5MdwP for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 23:24:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Received: from colo1.denninger.net (colo1.denninger.net [104.236.120.189]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Wz1ss242gz4Mlj for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2024 23:24:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from karl@denninger.net) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=denninger.net; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of karl@denninger.net designates 104.236.120.189 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=karl@denninger.net Received: from denninger.net (syn-071-015-252-132.res.spectrum.com [71.15.252.132]) by colo1.denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 647002110C1 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 19:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.10.28] (D18.Denninger.Net [192.168.10.28]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by denninger.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E02C382F4F for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2024 19:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <757f500d-e1bb-4536-ad8a-c2ff45c8baf3@denninger.net> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2024 19:24:10 -0400 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <159D15FA-6235-484C-A54A-565E3CDEA690@gmail.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Karl Denninger Autocrypt: addr=karl@denninger.net; keydata= xsFNBF1Rd+gBEACmLAH7SAzdQq57ZN56QQEy0jDFfH5BvGOMZgCaP+Y5lJQ5u9WphCoCALMs Rg0o1Q9DRNWgUmy/cgsxioXAEzZFXXzOHPJhwplVOgfjxnoByD5KQhWG8Owm9QmATdtiZPSV 4UYVNUIbZv7btSnnAXysG2OUHajYS5PVeFQxFbhNFq/SS8VaXr1WEVTFa8NFKp2W3/KY1A+U KKDUlYwnOauK3fnY9chF2IRSoxAbBJFrJ4lPGz04HtzNos4Q9CBfTphKcdFjcPntNS9wrqs3 sm+7hLNTH9B2Kj6aekG5UhD03eyP+gevTgBy51RL6ULzI13Kc4aeyOByuBXrA8D2m2Ee67iy 4+ZSxM9Wn1gQce5624OWzCYIGBH2r75Bshp1KHKu36N2rN//kyKYnwl/z6UZB/S9cMUFKZgL gFx7QxpFX/HvSiBcPfcGS0meModpg6qma7/2jRoQAXacslpiT+uOfRGspNbnglkbw435RzX/ kMUclJQNZBBBUpPiGjVCjeBTiAfN8TyjS+pWzwxNCUZWbYO5xVaS0gbIhgVNoBOGn1rdTsdA PP65SRjaoL5KY6bzkkzrXLB2Djx8/p4vr0qIqxIQWbewJq3xKyKGiqI46ae77BF7k0B++Ndx g9K9UeWKl/iJ0eoI0ftR+xH3aIHTU1Or3j/tj4j8Z0tnVSyt1wARAQABzSNLYXJsIERlbm5p bmdlciA8a2FybEBkZW5uaW5nZXIubmV0PsLBfwQTAQgAKQUCZj4NhwIbIwUJDK6K2AcLCQgH 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ipnet:104.236.64.0/18, country:US]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:+,3:+,4:~,5:~] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Wz1ss242gz4Mlj This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------7kPlG3XboJRWXbAL1O9opkQs Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------NQAUL9qKhMaiNxL0TdXfiw9Y"; protected-headers="v1" From: Karl Denninger To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Message-ID: <757f500d-e1bb-4536-ad8a-c2ff45c8baf3@denninger.net> Subject: Re: It's not Rust, it's FreeBSD (and LLVM) References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <159D15FA-6235-484C-A54A-565E3CDEA690@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: --------------NQAUL9qKhMaiNxL0TdXfiw9Y Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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quoted-printable
On 9/3/2024 18:16, Chris wrote:
On 2024-09-03 12:36, David Cross wrote:
On Sep 3, 2024, at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFWhat is FreeBSD ?
-----------------

Forget Rust for the moment, I promise I will come back to it.

FreeBSD as a project was created almost entirely as protest against
the incompetent "UNIX-industry" as it existed around 1990.
...

This distribution format is neither more nor less perfect with
respect to reproducible builds and "Reflections on trusting trust"
than what we have today.

And yes, we have ports written in Rust, why do you ask?

Poul-Henning

PS: I overdosed on release work 25+ years ago, and have not been
paying them much attention since, but if this is what the pkgbase
crew has been pushing for more than a decade, we all owe them an
apology.

As a quick note I constantly build freebsd from source. I do it for all of my
systems for all updates, all patch releases.

I may be an outlier here, ...
You're definitely not. I build world/kernel for the multitude of servers (and home
equipment). For the servers, I only need to do it once (per hardware profile). Where I
then simply make images and pour it onto the boot/storage media.

In my opinion, the most attractive feature of the BSD's are that there are so darned
many options. There is no one-size-fits-all for anything, and the fact that FreeBSD
provides so many options to make/install/add/subtract/... provides a near perfect match
that tailors to anyone's needs.

--Chris

I'll third that.

One of the reasons I use FreeBSD almost-exclusively, beyond= my personal familiarity (I used it as the Unix "power" if you will behind my ISP in the 1990s) is that I can tailor it through the source build process quite-easily to multiple purposes.

My primary build and operating platform here is always buil= t and updated from source, and has several versions on it as "worktrees" at any given point in time.=C2=A0 That in turn builds b= oth release media and more-specialized "releases" that are more "appliance" like for specific purposes which are then deployed to various places.=C2=A0 Most of those are nanobsd (or Crochet, same basic deal) based because they need to be extremely power-fail tolerant and effectively operate, other than when saving configuration changes, without having to have an r/w mounted filesystem during normal operation.=C2=A0 Dual partition se= tup allows for "live" updating; update the non-running one and reboot.<= /p>

I also have machines in-field that are binary updated with freebsd-update -- those systems are quite "vanilla" in terms of their requirements.=C2=A0 I also have systems that I want to and do= update from -STABLE when commits come into the codebase but don't necessarily merit a "release-px" patch.

When llvm came into the tooolchain build times went vertical.=C2=A0= Fortunately by then so had processing power and I/O performance for "reasonable" equipment, but please do not kid yourself on the impact -- it was extremely significant in that self-hosted builds on lesser machines became intolerable.=C2=A0 Today I crossbuild rat= her than native in some cases because I basically have to in order to get reasonable build times, and incidentally there's a hard-to-reproduce (and thus far no fix as a result) issue I have open from having to do it that way right now against some ARM systems (https://bugs.freebsd.org/bug= zilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3D280038) that showed up with an LLVM fix for an issue that looks like it results in an alignment problem within LLVM in the target on the code that gets built, but disappears if you try to enable debugging symbols, assertions and even building with debug files (and then removing them before install.)=C2=A0 Of course without symbols the backtrace is very close to useless in figuring out exactly where its segfaulting and with them included it doesn't blow up.=C2=A0 Would this be immediately able to be isolated in a native build (or even not happen as its an artifact of cross-compiling)?=C2=A0 I don't know, but at 12 hours a crack to tr= y on a Pi3, if LLVM will even build at all on that due to RAM limitations, I'm not very inclined to try to find out.=C2=A0 My workaround for the present is to include the debug files -- but strip them from the finished media -- which makes the problem disappear.

Making that sort of problem worse, in my opinion, is to be avoided if the project can reasonably do so.

--
Karl Denninger
karl@denninger.net
The Market Ticker
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