From nobody Sat Jan 20 17:34:45 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4THNsM64kyz56Ltl for ; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4THNsM5ZXXz4Mg1; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705772087; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w8IuyhuyWqcsPnW8JkllAqCLgMei8wh4Qtb/yO8DtQI=; b=ZYyp5uEGZqVqOQO0ru6TB4gAiHt5+anD6gYoKBUFPN7Sql32NnNIMzF2xsC29rmddPlhHj EHgeVwCzCr3OG+BvRPhndszS7oIINBzlTsconnwjqrTc1DxJrjV3yItEX8E98NRTzEa9Rl gg1vIEJ5YskC8goTKs+amynXBBXq8ZHZOyBtOJlLa17DARs0WYI4T+Tq1k41ibWfAx/0uR 7K9p4ixmUx/cqJM9npPsT9s3AWflxfV5Ucxm4LDfiW23fNRZfZXjSNNkEpCB6GXBmg5W5F cda9vxtIMJWKbEZE5EY7ZDLJrI/WlXBflsbw6FbeMrHLlIFT6M4v877HSrlw0Q== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1705772087; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=w8IuyhuyWqcsPnW8JkllAqCLgMei8wh4Qtb/yO8DtQI=; b=v1Wft4bHXCUzubYBBlOtjYcFutHVNgtJKmgrM4l4bKDHeyND5j4OJuJ/o8qhWNBXRoANzS dlAC7h2jLHhV1xIBZ6MugtvATKbFkp0JI2W++P1wvdcjNbkpQSjOcwZGooL3u46KW5+2ba zPoaBM/4MHXYZ6+bsJNxZi9duuNmJ0I3KDnQkjCiKLTJLOZCMSh7dFnsNduG5tA5WiD0y4 B1JnEuYqt3w+kvcAU3/UYoUTw6ynxgABxWA0QvJt1wvCuCCi8BCVz7IRP490CjQBQ5YYhL 3IdDJIKi1TKWmbxmE94vBIfNzdqH1BVKM6KCh4lXbNsPXLxyUWtWjWJvOYsjPA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1705772087; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=dHBXYacBnNdy72cRn/89K0HM1ngsuMhWbYY/z0fxmk9vHWjg1KFjvPNy7vcpHTlfP8PEqw vvJV26IPKNOVESWXXa7Q2HB0tTkOvXRcqnU7p+mvgK7rwykTFARSGsj1W2I/p6D0VR5IzQ yQ7t7nCaQvRLsV+flW4MUANhWh+2WEVOeGcA2+C9Oed75MdO75mvxamrfdCzj2SRcEkXNX tp00GgRihifVbs7V+llQ1jVUygdapUtwIXtwUxZ7QI4k9afUdZ6jlZXuEr+3LIZcaX0thH QahHWBP4NCj6GpdSWjXWPrug58cbqjQchbX5E4rN4kGloBu+3W7yPVMEa7PipQ== Received: from tensor.andric.com (tensor.andric.com [87.251.56.140]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "tensor.andric.com", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) (Authenticated sender: dim) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4THNsM3vrZzjh0; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:34:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dim@FreeBSD.org) Received: from smtpclient.apple (longrow.home.andric.com [192.168.0.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by tensor.andric.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A5A91D50A; Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:34:45 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3731.700.6\)) Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) From: Dimitry Andric In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:34:45 +0100 Cc: Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , meka@tilda.center Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <01519AEB-2725-492F-BC17-A7A40166D437@FreeBSD.org> References: To: Gleb Popov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3731.700.6) On 20 Jan 2024, at 18:13, Gleb Popov wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 7:51=E2=80=AFPM Alan Somers = wrote: >> To >> summarize, the cost is that it would double our build times. >=20 > Would it? =46rom what I remember, a lot of rust's build time comes = from > building its own LLVM. Can we reuse our base LLVM for Rust-in-base? It used to be the case that the Rust port could not use an LLVM port, but had to use its own copy, but it seems that as of https://cgit.freebsd.org/ports/commit/?id=3D098de5bc2195 it is possible again. However, I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction: why keep attempting to build all these huge toolchain components in our base system at all? Our bmake is reasonably powerful, but upstream build systems for both LLVM and Rust require lots of dependencies that we can never all import. And mimicking those upstream builds in our base system is getting more and more complicated all the time. Therefore, I think it is better to put more effort in supporting external toolchain components, and even going so far as to remove some of those toolchains from base. Including LLVM, at some point. Let new toolchain components for base live in ports, please. -Dimitry