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Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:24:39 +0000 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2024 19:22:38 +0000 (UTC) From: "barney_cordoba@yahoo.com" To: Wojciech Puchar Cc: Tomoaki AOKI , Antranig Vartanian , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers , Warner Losh , Scott Long , =?UTF-8?Q?Goran_Meki=C4=87?= Message-ID: <867128400.2198.1708716158027@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net> References: <3DCF4236-4DFA-448E-A378-DE04EC147B50@FreeBSD.org> <20240201000734.83a86f486691276e533530e4@dec.sakura.ne.jp> <782FA00C-3B90-49C8-85F7-AF784F42A3CC@FreeBSD.org> <6af9739e-2be3-d0a8-bcb0-fd63196246e5@puchar.net> Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2197_586300815.1708716158026" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.22103 YMailNorrin X-Spamd-Bar: -- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.00 / 15.00]; FROM_DN_EQ_ADDR(1.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36646, ipnet:66.163.184.0/21, country:US]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROMTLD(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[66.163.189.58:from]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4ThKhS39ygz52Y2 ------=_Part_2197_586300815.1708716158026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there really nothing else to do other than debate re-writing stuff in s= ome new language and adding more layers of cruft to the OS? You should be working on streamlining the OS and making it easier for more = people to help maintain. The first thing I did when I upgraded to 14 was ri= p out the e1000 driver, which has become a Frankenstein project. iflib is c= rap and unnecessary. Drivers are infested with netmap, RSS, ALTQ, pfil, pf = and every other pet project for the last 20 years. =C2=A0These things shoul= d not be part of the base code. Make the OS so these "features" can be wedg= ed in without infesting the base code.=C2=A0 With big multicore systems getting cheaper the goal should be to get more n= imble; not add more and more cruft and more languages to learn. "Unix" is w= ritten in C. People who develop in unix know C. Therfact that there are a l= ot of bad ideas and bad code in the FreeBSD isn't a reason to do things in = another language. Fix the code.=C2=A0 On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at = 01:32:18 PM PST, Wojciech Puchar wrote: =20 =20 =20 On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David Chisnall wrote: > On 31 Jan 2024, at 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: >> >> First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using volatile >> memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/or DMA driver. > > The first half of that is obvious nonsense.=C2=A0 Memory-mapped I/O is no= t intrinsically unsafe, from a memory-safety perspective.=C2=A0 Even Java h= as volatile objects and Sun Labs used Java for device drivers twenty years = ago.=C2=A0 Having a memory-safe interface for MMIO is helpful. This line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion. Two things are certain: - democracy is last phase of civilisation fall. Happening today.=20 Democracy, in case of FreeBSD will do the same for FreeBSD. Already happened year ago for linux and others. As there are more stupid people than clever. If it wins - Rust and other nonsenses will become quickly standard. What=20 is certain - that there will be exactly opposite about security holes that= =20 their claims. There will be far more that it is today. - clever people don't need latest computers, so current FreeBSD can still= =20 be used. With possibly some development to meet current needs. So not=20 really a problem. Mark Twain once said "no amount of arguments are sufficient for idiot". So this is my last post. Keep fighting. =20 ------=_Part_2197_586300815.1708716158026 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is there really nothing else t= o do other than debate re-writing stuff in some new language and adding mor= e layers of cruft to the OS?

You should be working on streamlining the OS and making i= t easier for more people to help maintain. The first thing I did when I upg= raded to 14 was rip out the e1000 driver, which has become a Frankenstein p= roject. iflib is crap and unnecessary. Drivers are infested with netmap, RS= S, ALTQ, pfil, pf and every other pet project for the last 20 years.  = These things should not be part of the base code. Make the OS so these "fea= tures" can be wedged in without infesting the base code. 

With big multicore syst= ems getting cheaper the goal should be to get more nimble; not add more and= more cruft and more languages to learn. "Unix" is written in C. People who= develop in unix know C. Therfact that there are a lot of bad ideas and bad= code in the FreeBSD isn't a reason to do things in another language. Fix t= he code. 
=20
=20
On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 01:32:18 PM PST, Wojc= iech Puchar <wojtek@puchar.net> wrote:




On Wed, 31 Jan 2024, David = Chisnall wrote:

> On 31 Jan 2024, a= t 15:07, Tomoaki AOKI <junchoon@dec.sakura= .ne.jp> wrote:
>>
>>= First of all, NO MEMORY-SAFE language can write codes using volatile
>> memory objects, most notably, memory-mapped I/O and/o= r DMA driver.
>
> The first half = of that is obvious nonsense.  Memory-mapped I/O is not intrinsically u= nsafe, from a memory-safety perspective.  Even Java has volatile objec= ts and Sun Labs used Java for device drivers twenty years ago.  Having= a memory-safe interface for MMIO is helpful.

This = line above is complete nonsense. as most of that discussion.

Two things are certain:

- democracy is last phase of civilisation fall. Happening today. =
Democracy, in case of FreeBSD will do the same for FreeB= SD.
Already happened year ago for linux and others.
As there are more stupid people than clever.
If it wins - Rust and other nonsenses will become quickly standard. What <= br clear=3D"none">is certain - that there will be exactly opposite about se= curity holes that
their claims. There will be far more t= hat it is today.

- clever people don't= need latest computers, so current FreeBSD can still
be = used. With possibly some development to meet current needs. So not
really a problem.

Mark Twai= n once said "no amount of arguments are sufficient for idiot".

So this is my last post. Keep fighting.


=
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