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[209.85.219.181]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-6f8c4639a45sm18026717b3.34.2025.02.02.11.38.59 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:39:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e549be93d5eso4143560276.1 for ; Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:38:59 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:2845:b0:e25:ca37:b669 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e58a4b12c0fmr11806736276.24.1738525139656; Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:38:59 -0800 (PST) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2025 20:38:47 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-Gm-Features: AWEUYZkDsO4cCMEz98CM95ElylqMgJhbF1DBfn_ii7b2_jhzhR1n3dS89J2AfYg Message-ID: Subject: Re: Adjustments to userland for a quieter startup (RC system) To: "Steven Harms (High-Security Mail)" Cc: "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4YmKgq3kjtz3Mgf X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] On Sun, Feb 2, 2025 at 11:19=E2=80=AFAM Steven Harms (High-Security Mail) wrote: > > Okay, I am sorry, I mixed the general idea with detailed PR that aims > > just updating routing and devmatch parts with user selectable option > > not changing a defaults, thus my previous remarks are invalid and > > updated, I apologize! :-) > > A goal of this PR was to flush out dialogue around whether there was a un= iversal noise level-adjusting knob in the RC system. [jlduran]'s more ambit= ious PR, my PR, and the discussion to this post suggest "no." I think it's = probably right to generalize the discussion! > > I also realize that this is a probably a controversial perspective. My mo= tivation here is ultimately service to the FreeBSD Laptop project. Windows = and OSX have conditioned many in the population of the FreeBSD-curious to e= xpect a lot less text on startup if things are going well. Thank you Steven, and my apologies once again to mix things up badly, I feel ashamed, I need to sleep more as my 8-bit Neural Network CPU does not seem to cope with this surrounding world "innovation" and multitasking :-P Yes that would be a controversial decision to change defaults to mute and get rid of boot/rc messages, thus my inital allergic reaction, sorry :D But its always good to talk things over maybe a new solution can show up that way and will not flip everything upside down over and over again :-) One "black box" scenario that came to my mind we did not mention is some embedded system that we really do not want to show anything OS related just the final login prompt.. or was that the initial idea? > To those who say "Yes, seeing the diagnostic data is why FreeBSD is so gr= eat," I say: In a server/device context, I'd not change anything (something= my PR may have flubbed in its implementation). ***But***, I contend that f= or FreeBSD to thrive on a wider population of laptops and access a wider po= pulation of users, some options (including such a noise knob for the RC sys= tem) ought be available. The extent that [helloSystem] went to hide message= s suggests an unmet need. > > [helloSystem]: https://hellosystem.github.io/docs/developer/boot.html#boo= t-mute > [jlduran]: https://github.com/jlduran/freebsd-src/pull/90/files > (..) > > * I guess the idea is to silence the terminal? How many flags need to > > be put to silent instead just one? Why not just put a boot logo image > > if you really do not want to see the boot messages? It may provide > > expected user experience and will not impact diagnostic information > > that are usually useful :-) > > Sadly boot_mute=3D"YES" was insufficient as well. It only seems to mute = /kernel/-level diagnostics. Afterward, my screen was still full of RC-origi= nating content. And yes, suppose we /could/ do an overlay until the login p= rompt -- I think that should be supported. It's what I _expected_ boot_mute= =3DYES to do by default, frankly. Looks like the boot logo screen component needs an update, so it covers the rc scripts too, and maybe show some animated spinner indicating working stuff in the background, and this should fix the problem right? Most systems work that way already, and pressing Tab or Esc jumps to the log messages easily when necessary / possible / allowed. Log levels is just an idea for generic commonly practiced solution that may be applied to rc/init, you replace echo / printf with log(lvl, fmsg, ..), but its quite a big task and not sure if really critical right now / worth the time..? Thank you :-) Tomek --=20 CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info