From nobody Mon Jan 29 10:27:05 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TNkxs5wgYz58Qk5 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) Received: from smtp.freebsd.org (smtp.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::24b:4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.freebsd.org", Issuer "R3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TNkxs5JyFz4rtj; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1706524033; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3bXuq4gQfO2kX/K78pwqhJKUHOulkSLKOni2E8roDp4=; b=xkvINTeL1WPQVBEiF0OadgvlBnjpD5lFxLtakmOh0cBIUNk0SM3im1aIErLVoeWzh7Hnif yMY2MIn9Hk4ZDYPii59UtaQ0hEzs24j98mNyPZ3QlF6DiOUKIUQ3O7SIqDxp9wi/4PcEAp llWKT846tP8kxHN/Igu8nhy/+kUlEiHDM0M28pkHI7ZCjf+x5NCQ0eiw9YKrG5bh85T8fc FbGKR/1vdctpk51x7GGgLfx+ZTxsXbVoZLKhVjOOgg9Dl4wD5VRuMKlpqEGreK9EHB/mGC q79+M39ZvLnae71FjY9s0IZkkCYd815SwM0ytrByfqvwoyRYnpJijL43CLJUjQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=freebsd.org; s=dkim; t=1706524033; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3bXuq4gQfO2kX/K78pwqhJKUHOulkSLKOni2E8roDp4=; b=B4spr+//+hGN/3uwfTrL5vcslnTG/7auRYLSna86J7N6Ylh2/IChf5SZAiKf3ZOMzHNHo/ mg074nWRwzkgHTxHkpWmiaqPb5eC5Q1aYP+qhPv75Tjn3AGgY/TPgFK0Ud+qXjuzSRuWvU 5Jqo+TlYmKaY6zHR9Q/fEeAJrTSyp3I1uunsE/NRsTimPOJcNo8329bjdOUAMIZOBwpl7Z gI6WBoKY8FrnrcHQMD6iEQ6x111Lr70p05jIXzN9n6+NvRZvHUxbwFq2zy2xROfySe9ait Z07cmXNbt6k0jPehpFUA8Z/wJipsry3UAkhHKLNkj7AfcBXDim/rs7cnAl7iaA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx1.freebsd.org; none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=dkim; d=freebsd.org; t=1706524033; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=EkFQLFUzpmrshNEDeupbMXA04HshWf4S43hGDxCAmHwYjuJ0zPXaUIvv/ndS9rGJA2OcYc MNZIATdNlXyOhDyWJ2Gkf3P3FTPhow4zKfueAtFZ207TtrcatopR3zgSYx06uVl1A80Igw IcykO6hICVJMV6Ytl7j1W/V3/j2NUiGW6Ca7OSEH4S6hr541QUpLngq1GZom+gBf54aPHu tvKkHAzC4DFNl71U4lAKd4jytnKBDFVirfwkF1z8pcx3NzdW6WXeWHj6846EAGNWFp3gg7 MM4zjg3ivsz0Bz2+dd3fAMj0JrZD87HfNdoyGzWOBbLGtjOo1++Mru1llRLuiQ== Received: from ravel.localnet (lfbn-nic-1-525-172.w90-118.abo.wanadoo.fr [90.118.140.172]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: olce/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TNkxs22YBz182g; Mon, 29 Jan 2024 10:27:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from olce@freebsd.org) From: Olivier Certner To: Mark Millard Cc: Current FreeBSD Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:27:05 +0100 Message-ID: <10218883.mV2X7mr0Zk@ravel> In-Reply-To: <74B030A5-6141-4FE2-AE8C-79548B82FAF0@yahoo.com> References: <12921270.kl7XSLc1hW@ravel> <74B030A5-6141-4FE2-AE8C-79548B82FAF0@yahoo.com> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2609540.JStIQ7tifP"; micalg="pgp-sha384"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" --nextPart2609540.JStIQ7tifP Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Olivier Certner To: Mark Millard Cc: Current FreeBSD Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 11:27:05 +0100 Message-ID: <10218883.mV2X7mr0Zk@ravel> In-Reply-To: <74B030A5-6141-4FE2-AE8C-79548B82FAF0@yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Mark, > I'm confused: I go to the trouble to produce the same end result > as your suggested change of defaults would produce, ending up > with no recording of access times. That's nice of you, but unfortunately that's missing the point. First, you= claimed to "seriously care" about access time, so I simply asked about you= r use cases, which you have not talked about. Second, your suggestions do = not (in fact, cannot) produce the same end result as what I'm suggesting (c= hange of default, or have a sysctl to control the default). I've already l= isted three use cases in an answer to Warner that can't be covered by modif= ying '/etc/fstab', and two of them that can't by just specifying mount opti= ons to mount(8) on the command-line (the auto-mounters).=20 > My focus was on things like mount command notation and > /etc/fstab notation (that tracks mount defaults) or subroutine > interface equivalents of such things and changing their > behavior without requiring changing the notation already in > place in various files. > Nothing about that of itself > implies that I'd want the defaults for mount notation or /etc/fstab > notation or the like changed --or that I'd want them unchanged. > To narrow of a context for such a judgment about defaults. These two paragraphs seem to contradict themselves. If you've gone to the = trouble mentioned above, wasn't it precisely to avoid changing the defaults= ? Because changing them implies that the exact same mount(8) command-line = or line in '/etc/fstab' will have a different effect if 'atime' nor 'noatim= e' aren't explicitly specified. This is a goal, not an unwanted side effec= t. > In case the potential confusion is involved I'm wondering if you might be confusing default options per mount (as a lin= e in '/etc/fstab') and system defaults applying to all mounts. By design, = the former can't apply to mounts not handled by '/etc/fstab'. The latter a= pplies in any situation, barring explicit specifications by the administrat= or (or delegated software), which is why it belongs to the kernel (it has t= o apply to the relevant system calls). > (I've tried to word the above without making new points, > avoiding contributing more to the bike shed material.) Bike shedding has become so popular in these circles that some people see b= ike shedding where there is none, and/or use it as a tactic to try to disqu= alify what others are saying. The initial bike shedding email was about a = simple, obvious change to sleep(1) that prompted a flame war lasting weeks,= with unfriendly fire from the project's people, sometimes from the old tim= ers. We haven't had much of that so far, except perhaps for a few mildly a= ggressive or emotional emails, and the thread was active for only 10 days. = It was then paused for 12 days since I didn't find time to read the latest= mails and produce answers until today. What sets it apart also from the s= leep(1) example is that I intended to drop an idea and gather reactions bef= ore having even produced code, because I wasn't sure on how it would be rec= eived and in particular what are the use cases that could be affected. Obt= aining this feedback is essential because this project is about people from= diverse backgrounds and needs. It also helps in clarifying a particular d= esign, which some answers fulfilled. I'm now at the point where the next s= tep is to put up some code for review for a sysctl knob. Is 'noatime' not being the default the biggest problem we currently have in= FreeBSD? I agree it isn't. However, it doesn't mean there is no value in= it. On the contrary, I think it is very important that the project has sa= ne defaults that match contemporary uses: It reduces the need for tweaks, w= hich serves both beginners but *also* seasoned administrators. This is in = isolation a very small step in this direction, but there have been others a= nd more will come. Collectively, they can build up to significant addition= al value for the project. Regards. =2D-=20 Olivier Certner --nextPart2609540.JStIQ7tifP Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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