From nobody Sun Jan 14 22:27:32 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4TCqf013F2z57JP6 for ; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 22:27:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Received: from www121.sakura.ne.jp (www121.sakura.ne.jp [153.125.133.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4TCqdz5Dbgz4NX8; Sun, 14 Jan 2024 22:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from kalamity.joker.local (123-1-91-49.area1b.commufa.jp [123.1.91.49]) (authenticated bits=0) by www121.sakura.ne.jp (8.17.1/8.17.1/[SAKURA-WEB]/20201212) with ESMTPA id 40EMRWJg063356; Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:27:32 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from junchoon@dec.sakura.ne.jp) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 07:27:32 +0900 From: Tomoaki AOKI To: Mark Millard Cc: Olivier Certner , Current FreeBSD Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Message-Id: <20240115072732.85c2213714a658d3b98ab830@dec.sakura.ne.jp> In-Reply-To: <6A477CBE-692E-49F9-B21E-2C0D29F09766@yahoo.com> References: <3183964.fD0qBhBWp0@ravel> <6A477CBE-692E-49F9-B21E-2C0D29F09766@yahoo.com> Organization: Junchoon corps X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.7.0 (GTK+ 2.24.33; amd64-portbld-freebsd14.0) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4TCqdz5Dbgz4NX8 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7684, ipnet:153.125.128.0/18, country:JP] On Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:53:34 -0800 Mark Millard wrote: > On Jan 14, 2024, at 08:39, Olivier Certner wrote: > > > Hi Mark, > > > >> I never use atime, always noatime, for UFS. That said, I'd never propose > >> changing the long standing defaults for commands and calls. > > > > With this mail, you're giving more detailed objections on the social/political aspects of the proposed changed, or as we usually say more simply, POLA. > > > > All your points are already largely weakened by the fact that, to wrap-up in a single sentence at the risk of being slightly caricatural (but then see my other mails), nobody really seems to care seriously about access times. > > I seriously care about having a lack of access times. Yet, I've no > objection to needing to be explicit about it in commands and > subroutine interfaces, given the long standing interfaces (defaults). > It would be different if I could not achieve the lack of access > times. That defaults do not block having the desired settings makes > the change optional, not technically required. The defaults are, > thus, primarily social/political aspects of interfaces, not > technical requirements to make things work. > > Given that, I explicitly claim that avoiding POLA at this late stage > is my preference for the priority of competing considerations. I > make no claim of knowing the majority view of the tradeoffs. I would > claim that, if the majority is not by just some marginal amount, > contradicting that majority view for this would not be appropriate. > (Again: the social/political aspects.) > > And, hopefully, this is my last contribution to this particular > bike shed. > > === > Mark Millard > marklmi at yahoo.com I would prefer violating POLA here, with, for example, forcing admins to choose explicitly with installer menu Choose whether you need to retain last file access time or not: 1: Don't keep (current default) 2: Keep last one (default before 15.0) by hand, or via installer configuration or additional scripts. Of course, existing installations should not be affected. -- Tomoaki AOKI