From nobody Sat Jun 03 20:30:31 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-arch@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QYWjn09q0z4YR9X for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 20:31:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net (omta002.cacentral1.a.cloudfilter.net [3.97.99.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QYWjm5RB5z42x9 for ; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from shw-obgw-4003a.ext.cloudfilter.net ([10.228.9.183]) by cmsmtp with ESMTP id 5Ph3qeyWD6Nwh5XuGqLbs2; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.66.148.124]) by cmsmtp with ESMTPA id 5XuEqJK6Ocyvu5XuFqvWFs; Sat, 03 Jun 2023 20:31:24 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=VbHkgXl9 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=647ba31c a=Cwc3rblV8FOMdVN/wOAqyQ==:117 a=Cwc3rblV8FOMdVN/wOAqyQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=of4jigFt-DYA:10 a=7Qk2ozbKAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=j4zLzoAHAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=EkcXrb_YAAAA:8 a=DlCSJ8rPJuiklJ5SV6UA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1lyxoWkJIXJV6VJUPhuM:22 a=NdquYzcY2JcW_1i42sf-:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=LK5xJRSDVpKd5WXXoEvA:22 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [24.244.23.95]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEE9050AC; Sat, 3 Jun 2023 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2023 13:30:31 -0700 From: Cy Schubert To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, Warner Losh , Mark Millard CC: Emmanuel Vadot , freebsd-arch Subject: Re: Future of 32-bit platforms (including i386) In-Reply-To: References: <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00.ref@yahoo.com> <00E63ECC-2E7B-4C9F-9903-A8BD67278C00@yahoo.com> <3D0FACB4-A356-4FB1-BB10-0232DEBB08C0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-arch List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfIA2u2HBcixR2qedOOsaawuN/+qO0Bs9kRGkJohDHUFLI5wz1vuEhBOWVoQuvuDGD9ZFFXHgLqIpcB983xqIzEOeh2zPN7lrrytQ4URZaMNjbtS1+0/Y /jGzs9i0PGMBNa7axLx9nMbhXv9H93OcQXq4jnbs7AkrKwJG/UYSjZDkNk4y14YfE1jOV42DOBToL2W8i+4KakuVIEZC/TndJDT24HOui1aIeMoeBTAy+IJw GDIW6xyRiOBrLXlQG5ejWwNnHtRW3gasUkZ5gQ3RiFsO6aUUo+StpxpzpelWtzaP X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QYWjm5RB5z42x9 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:16509, ipnet:3.96.0.0/15, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On June 3, 2023 11:29:00 AM PDT, Warner Losh wrote: >On Sat, Jun 3, 2023, 10:44 AM Mark Millard wrote: > >> >> On May 31, 2023, at 10:30, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> > On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 10:09=E2=80=AFAM Mark Millard wrote: >> > Emmanuel Vadot wrote on >> > Date: Wed, 24 May 2023 06:35:55 UTC : >> > >> > > =2E =2E =2E >> > > >> > > I personnaly see armv7 in "degraded maintainance mode" since 13=2E0= , >> > > nothing really intersting was added, no new SoC support even if the= re >> > > was some interesting one that we could support, no new drivers for >> > > supported platforms=2E We even lost TI BeagleBone support because n= o one >> > > really have the time to keep support up to date=2E >> > > I still have some little cute boards that I want to use from time t= o >> > > time but the lack of proper porting of new language (like rust and = iirc >> > > go have problems too) is making new software unusable on those boar= ds >> > > (you can't even make some "smart speaker" for spotify as all the >> > > spotify clients are in rust)=2E >> > > IMX6 support is stalled since ian@ passed away and mmel@ isn't very >> > > active atm and they were both the most actives developers for armv7= low >> > > level code=2E >> > >> > One of the things for tier 2 is: >> > (from https://docs=2Efreebsd=2Eorg/en/articles/committers-guide/#arch= s >> > 21=2E4=2E Tier 2 section) >> > >> > QUOTE >> > Collectively, developers are required to provide the following >> > to maintain the Tier 2 status of a platform: >> > >> > =E2=80=A2 Tier 2 architectures must have an active ecosystem of u= sers and >> developers=2E >> > END QUOTE >> > >> > Is there an implication that, even for 14, the "developers" >> > part of that for armv7 has dropped off to the point that >> > tier 2 would reasonably be in question? >> > >> > For the 14 branch, armv7 seems to be right on the edge=2E Some >> > bugs do get fixed, but some of the SoCs are so poorly maintained >> > that they don't work anymore (for whatever reason)=2E So "degraded >> > maintenance mode" is likely apt for 14: it will still work, mostly, b= ut >> > many cool new things that people want, both in terms of languages >> > and new hardware support will be lacking in some way, shape or >> > form=2E Tier 2 is likely still the best tier to keep it at, imho=2E >> > >> >> One thing I was unsure of is how much the choice is driven >> by things as they are at around releng/14=2E0 vs=2E what things >> might be expected to be like around, say, releng/14=2E4 (a >> number of years later)=2E It appears that changing tier status >> is normally avoided for the likes of 14=2E[1-4] =2E >> > >A lot of it is sticking your finger in the air and projecting out 4 years= =2E >If nobody is going to be making any fixes and the code doesn't work at th= at >point, we are better off killing it now=2E For armv7, I still see bug fix= es >happening, but anticipate that any bad bug that pops up may not het fixed= =2E >I see no new hardware support absent some unforeseen resurgence=2E > >I suspect when we branch 15, it's 4 years out prospects will be even wors= e=2E >But I don't know that for sure=2E > >Warner > >=3D=3D=3D >> Mark Millard >> marklmi at yahoo=2Ecom >> >> IMO, having to "double back" to fix format errors or integer conversion er= rors causes developers just that little bit of distraction, time that added= up over time could be put to better use elsewhere=2E Compilers tend to be = more fussy these days, meaning one must pay even more attention to 64-bit v= s 32-bit than before=2E That's been my take over the years=2E --=20 Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: https://FreeBSD=2Eorg NTP: Web: https://nwtime=2Eorg e^(i*pi)+1=3D0 Pardon the typos=2E Small keyboard in use=2E