Re: Updating reboot's default

> On Wed, Jun 22, 2022 at 1:03 AM Michael Gmelin <grembo@freebsd.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On 22. Jun 2022, at 04:03, Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
> >
> > ?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 21, 2022, 6:35 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@freebsd.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, 21 June 2022 at  8:01:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> >> > 15 or 20 years ago, we talked about changing the default for reboot from
> >> > 'right now' to being safe shutdown. There were arguments made against it
> >> > due to tiny appliances and such.
> >> >
> >> > Time has past, and this oddity has persisted. It's time to revisit that
> >> > decision.
> >> >
> >> > I'd propose that we keep 'fastboot' and 'fasthalt' having the immediate
> >> > behavior. However, the 'reboot' command will switch from '-q' behavior
> >> to
> >> > '-r' behavior.
> >>
> >> Somehow I hear this echo "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".  My
> >> understanding has always been that shutdown(8) is the program that
> >> shuts down and maybe reboots the system, while reboot(8) is a quick
> >> and dirty way to reboot the system, along with halt(8) if you don't
> >> want to reboot.
> >>
> >> So why change this?  At the very least you'll confuse people who want
> >> to use the old method.  My guess is that you have some reason that's
> >> not immediately apparent, but what?
> >>
> >
> > Other systems have the behavior I'm advocating. We are the odd duck. This
> > means we tend to violate POLA here. And there is no good reason to do this
> > when fastboot is available. Nobody that advocated to keep this difference
> > as useful the last time it came up still wants to advocate. Most people
> > find the behavior annoying and only a vanishingly small minority of people
> > like it. In fact, so far nobody has even asked to please not, let alone
> > come up with a good reason to retain this behavior. So, I'm polling arch@
> > to see if anyone like that shows up.
> >
> >
> > Well, to be honest, I?m used to the current behavior and would prefer to
> > keep it (POLA for existing users). I didn?t answer to advocate against the
> > change as
> >
> > 1. I have no metric to counter your argument that this is a real problem
> > for people used to other OSes (neither how many people pick up FreeBSD in
> > general nor how many are unpleasantly surprised by how `reboot` works)
> > 2. I will certainly be able to adapt and get used to the new behavior
> > 3. Given the amount of change in the world right now, it?s a ?pick your
> > battles? situation. There is and will be so much to suck up, arguing about
> > this with someone who clearly put some thought into it seems like a waste
> > of everybody?s time.
> >
> 
> I posted so I could understand other views, so I'd like to ask some
> questions if I may.
> 
> Is your reliance on the current default due to shell and similar scripts
> you have? Or is it due to your interactive operations?
> What do you like about the current behavior: How quickly the reboot
> happens? Or you have a lot of running processes you don't want killed or to
> have a chance to clean up?
> What build process do you use to create your FreeBSD images? Images from
> the RE, buildworld, nanobsd, poudriere, etc...
> 
> The only thought I've put into this is from my perspective, and while it is
> often a good reflection of the larger community, there are times there's a
> mismatch, so I'd like to at least understand why you hold these views.
> There may be a simple way to accommodate both sides.

I'll once again assert your exposure to the "larger community" is
only valid when you restric the set of "community" to be developers.
I absolutely assert you are not in tune with the joe blow off the
street user of FreeBSD that rarely if ever interacts with the
project.

> 
> Warner
> 
> 
> > Cheers
> > Michael
> >
> > Warner
> >
> >
> > And no, I don't really have an axe to grind in this matter.
> >>
> >> Greg
> >> --
> >> Sent from my desktop computer.
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> >> This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
> >> reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php
> >>
> >

-- 
Rod Grimes                                                 rgrimes@freebsd.org