From nobody Tue Jul 12 01:51:59 2022 X-Original-To: freebsd-accessibility@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1F51D064A4 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 01:52:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pauamma@gundo.com) Received: from mail.gundo.com (gibson.gundo.com [75.145.166.65]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4LhkJc3wfRz3VYF; Tue, 12 Jul 2022 01:52:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from pauamma@gundo.com) Received: from webmail.gundo.com (variax.gundo.com [75.145.166.70]) by mail.gundo.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FE54C42D7; Mon, 11 Jul 2022 20:51:59 -0500 (CDT) List-Id: FreeBSD accessibility discussions List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-accessibility List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-accessibility@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 01:51:59 +0000 From: Pau Amma To: Baptiste Daroussin Cc: Postmaster , FreeBSD accessibility Subject: Re: Please switch freebsd-accessibility@ to open posting In-Reply-To: References: <20220630065413.xx4ufbjjzhsa5hut@aniel.nours.eu> <98972db391c2cd06388e8200815b1ed8@gundo.com> User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.4.8 Message-ID: <82ea00fb2d62f3adf3b24f143b77d210@gundo.com> X-Sender: pauamma@gundo.com Organization: The Cabal (TINC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4LhkJc3wfRz3VYF X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gundo.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of pauamma@gundo.com designates 75.145.166.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=pauamma@gundo.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gundo.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED(-0.20)[75.145.166.65:from]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:75.145.166.64/28]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_GOOD(-0.10)[75.145.166.65:from]; RCVD_NO_TLS_LAST(0.10)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:75.144.0.0/13, country:US]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-accessibility]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; FREEFALL_USER(0.00)[pauamma]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[] X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N On 2022-07-02 17:00, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: > Le 2 juillet 2022 08:23:53 GMT+02:00, Pau Amma a > écrit : >> On 2022-06-30 06:54, Baptiste Daroussin wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 03:13:09AM +0000, Pau Amma wrote: >>>> I meant for it to be when I requested its creation and thought based >>>> on the >>>> email I received asking for list information that it would be by >>>> default, >>>> but per https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264895#c5, >>>> the >>>> default was changed silently. >>> >>> Yes when you requested you specifically asked for open mailing list >>> it wasn't >>> changed silently it was missed in the initial request by myself, >>> otherwise I >>> would have answered the following: >>> By default we do setup all the mailing list as subscription only >>> and/or moderated, >>> most mailing list were configured like this long ago and I first >>> dropped it for 6 >>> month this politic while migrating to mlmmj and reinstanciated it >>> back. Why? >>> because of the amount of spam that went through the mailing lists and >>> creates lot >>> of work for us postmaster: >>> - dealing with people complaining about spam in the mailing lists >>> - monitoring such emails and flagging them as such to cleanup the >>> public >>> archives as much as possible from the spam etc. >>> >>> So beside strong arguments >> >> Here's one: "nothing about us without us". >> >> Accordingly, please consider the following: >> - post an apology to the list for accidentally not making it open then >> claiming "Subscription is easy" instead of asking us, including those >> of us with cognitive disabilities, how harder that extra hoop to jump >> through makes posting for us. >> - acknowledge the list exists primarily for our benefit, not the >> benefit of postmaster members or FreeBSD contributors as a whole (see >> the note at the end of >> https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-accessibility/2021-October/000000.html >> for another example of that). >> - ask us what we need and want, mention constraints you have that are >> or may be relevant (like the effort curbing spam and any others that >> you think also worth mentioning), then let us hash out the trade-offs >> and what works better for us. >> >> It may be that no clear consensus or decision emerges, or that one >> emerges agreeing with your position. I'm not the only one with a stake >> in this, and will abide by the outcome. That, however, doesn't excuse >> you from reaching out to us or doing due diligence. > > Wow just wow, I believe we deserve a minimum of respect and > benevolence. Being patronized like that is clearly the opposite of > that. Instead of calling me patronizing and disrespectful without (apparently) considering whether you were both first, you could have focused on the issues I raised. > We are spending countless hours of free time to try to provide the > best service as possible with the resource we have, we make mistake, > we can also make bad choices and they can be revisited, but clearly > not with such a disrespectful tone. What you resorted to instead is known as the tone argument, and is often used (knowingly or unknowingly) as a derailing or silencing method. See https://www.speak-up.org/derail/#toneargument for a good description. (The whole page is good reading for anyone interested in learning more on derailing.) -- #BlackLivesMatter #TransWomenAreWomen #AccessibilityMatters #StandWithUkrainians English: he/him/his (singular they/them/their/theirs OK) French: il/le/lui (iel/iel and ielle/ielle OK) Tagalog: siya/niya/kaniya (please avoid sila/nila/kanila)